From: turmel@freenet.carleton.ca
Date: Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:24pm
Subject: TURMEL: LETS Italian Banco di Tiempo thoughts
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 05:30:16 +0200
From: federico.tortorelli@l... 
Subject: Re: Welcome to Turmel
To: turmel@yahoogroups.com

FT: Thank you! Argentinians are great! after almost 70 years of justicialismo they are 
wakening! LETS are a real economic boom! and thanks for the occurrence of Josiah Warren at 
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/flax.htm

Excuse my bad English, please,I'm working to found the 1st mutual transparent price-of-
cost network (the experiment to start the greatest chain reaction on Earth), to update, 
simplify and synergyze the successful labor for labor equitable exchange experiments by 
Josiah Warren.

JCT: It's already been done. It's called LETS and the UNILETS world-wide model is already on 
the Millennium Declaration, resolution C6. All you have to do is work to get your country to 
adopt the UN UNILETS Time Standard of 
Money. 

FT: imagine few dozens of productive organizations supplying one another at price of cost: 
they reduce prices, costs, taxes and duties mutually. They will attract other crazy (really 
not too much crazy) suppliers, who will reduce a little more their prices and costs 

JCT: Yes, that is what will happen when the bankers don't take 90% of all profit. Prices 
will be reduced by at least the interest for everyone. 

FT: You could calculate the difference by comparing the percentage of the real costs to 
the total of a transparent price compiled by an alternative trade org, their average is 
approximately a half, so what? simply: all supplier's supplier's supplier's supplier's 
means half of the half of the half of the half price for the same quality and quantity 
of whatever good.

JCT: We don't have to calculate the result. All we have to do is make sure we are exerting 
maximum industrial power, and leave the rest to nature. 

FT: It requires a digital microdollar\euro service, but it undermines seriously the value 
base of taxation, while they can't overtax the unequalable honesty and equity of the price 
of cost system (remember the meaningful Time Store experiment by Josiah Warren at New Harmony, 
1842-1844, where backyards' retailers had a moral suasion to adequate their prices to the 
principle of cost: it didn't need even one level of price-of-cost supplying reciprocity. 
Link to download it at bottom).

JCT: I'm not sure what you mean, try again, but if you are saying that the dentist moderates 
his prices to a smaller disparity than in the usury-based economy, that's because in the 
usury-based 1/(s-i) economy, more money gets you more money interest so it is optimal to 
charge the maximum. But in the LETS 1/s economy, more money does not get you more money 
because i=0% so it is optimal not to charge the maximum but to charge what you need while 
delivering the best value for the buck to guarantee return patronage. It's a whole new 
philosophy when there is no incentive to hoard the money chips to get interest. 

FT: If a price of cost member supplies a "for profit" or coercive (governmental) organization, 
such a member must not give them all that valuable labour for free. A non-member will sell the 
goods with a plus-price, of course. Except for retail, supplying to non-members should be at 
current market prices, but the plus-prices must be restituted equally to each of the 7,000,000 
individual consumers on our Earth, IMMEDIATELY when he or she asks for them. In the meanwhile 
the remaining money could be invested to purchase important suppliers or retailing points, 
shared property (local or not).

JCT: Sorry but this loses me. Words like "remaining money" sounds eerily like the present 
world where there isn't enough. "Remaining money" just can't apply to a world where everyone 
has their very own Internet wampum machine to create their very own currency IOUs acceptable 
amongst the whole Internet family as valid for time. 

FT: Then the average consumer find in her or his hands some superfluous money, probably he or 
she will spend a large part of it for some luxuries, work for less time, invest a few dollars 
participating or leading an enterprise, or maybe hoard 'em up. 

JCT: When movement of goods and services is maximized, investments and hoarding just don't
become issues. 

FT: No interest is right, of course, and banks were yet superfluous. Hyperinflation outside 
and hyperdeflation inside. 

JCT: 0%-interest 1/s currency systems have 0% inflation. Only 1/(s-i%) currency systems 
have i/(p+i) inflation. (1/s and 1/(s-i%) are Laplace Transforms) 
See http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm So discussing hyperinflation or hyperdeflation 
when money is based on a stable hour of time is redundant. 

FT: The very important consequence of a complete price-of-cost network is a permanent change 
of money's philosophical and practical dynamics and meaning, and over all the end of any 
centralized power on money's facts and meaning, whatever currency, persuading everyone by 
equitable, real prices, that would be not a mere absence of violence, that would be 
non-violence, power of truth. D'ya know what it means? maybe I'll explain in a better way 
the next time how it works.

JCT: Better you participate in our upcoming tutorial on banking systems engineering starting 
in July. See <http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/1118> for details on a July series 
of questions and answers that will be translated into Spanish and French. Would you like to 
do the Italian translation? It sure would be in-depth study for you and help bring Italy's 
Banco di Tiempo into focus. 

FT: Not only in Argentina, the weakest, but we could overthrow the exploitation system by 
a price-of-cost network starting from the most developed countries, just using the usual 
current currency! it will be the first one happy economic crisis.

JCT: Sure, one would have thought that the exploitation system would have been overthrown 
in the highest tech nations but people here aren't yet starving enough in large numbers to 
take barter seriously, yet. The more people in the barter network, the better it works. 
You need enough broke people to join to make it worthwhile. When millions join, it becomes 
invaluable. One large recession throwing a quarter of Canada into unemployment would help 
turn Canada's four dozen LETS into ready oases of liquidity for the new deserts created, 
just like the Trueque social creditos system that started in 1995 were ready to take over 
the money function when the crash did hit. When it hits in Canada, our 40 existing systems 
will lead the way to an explosion from 40 to 400 branches like there were in Argentina from 
500 to 5000. 

FT: prices should measure costs (labour, an objective thing), not values (usefulness, 
unavailability, spending power, deserving, etc.) currency should not be an elastic meter or 
yard urgency tends to increase the plus-price, concurrence tends to reduce it when prices are 
not equal to costs, they are "compromise prices" the difference between cost and price is the 
plus-price workers are exploited as consumers by the compromise-price-and-usury system costs 
are live labour and incorporated labour gifts are not costs costs should be referred only to 
the intentional product, therefore incidental products should be given for free the plus-price 
should be restituted to the final consumer, the only exploited one some smart rule to prevent 
frauds etc...
 
JCT: Everyone on this reading list agree with you on the need for a stable currency and most 
agree that the best common denominator is the Time Standard of Money. How you see gains may 
be true though when we're doing our best, we don't need to worry about the results. 

FT: Leon Walras, economist and mathematician, also affirmed that a perfect concurrence would 
lead everyone's profits to zero in "For a New Liberty" Rothbard denounces the role of the 
Central Banks in order to give each year a lot of printed paper for real things (and allow 
the other banks to do the same thing for a multiple of 5), and this gigantic inflation is 
absorbed by a current gigantic natural\social\technology reduction of production costs

JCT: I think saying anything perfect would lead to "everyone's profits to zero." I want a 
world where everyone's profits, or poker chips, go up as more and more resources are scored 
and pledged to the bank. I want tons of resources converted to ecological use. And the more 
wealth we create, the more value we add to our society that we can call on, the more chips 
should be issued to match increased wealth. Keep in mind that it always has to run like Casino 
Turmel poker chips. 

FT: There's a lot of ideas and wonderful consequences to discover within the mutual 
price-of-cost, instead of a neglected limit case: the right thing, happy paradoxes

JCT: Many of us have seen the same heaven just around the corner. The point is that there
is no reason to be doing the same basics again. What you want is on Resolution C6 of the 
Millennium Declaration, an interest-free time-based banking system. What fairer game could 
you ask for? With all your Banco di Tiempos around, why start at the bottom the hard 
way when you can work at the top by getting your government to endorse the UNILETS Time 
Standard of Money. 

FT: Please click these links and save the pages: 
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/warren/4.html 
(download Josiah Warren's "True Civilization", that wonderful e-book!, and explore Warren) 
after and before Paragraph 231 (the first victory of the price of cost thanks Warren)
http://melior.univ-montp3.fr/ra_forum/warren_josiah/warren_j.bibliography.html
http://www.blancmange.net/tmh/articles/manifesto.shtml 
(Warren for equitable commerce)
http://www.banderanegra.canadianwebs.com/warren.html 
Manifiesto, por Josiah Warren, el primer anarquista americano
http://www.ecn.org/freedom/totlib/individu.html 
Individualist Anarchism, by Henry Meulen, The Strickland Press Glasgow, 1949Henry Meulen is 
author also of the book "FREE BANKING" (Macmillans, London, 1934, 430 pp.) 
"Free Banking" (a short outline of the above book in pamphlet form. 16 pp.), Printed and 
Published in Great Britain by the Strickland Press, at 104 George Street, Glasgow, C.I. 
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Quad/6460/doct/830Cinti.html 
The Plan of the Cincinnati Labour for Labour Store (Explanation of the Design and Arrangements 
of the Cooperative Magazine, which has recently been commenced in Cincinnati) by Josiah Warren 
from http://www.lysanderspooner.org/BIOch8.htm: Many years later, Clarence Lee Swartz (another 
anarchist activist and publisher) recalled that "during the last months of Warren's life. 
He, [Edward] Linton, [another anarchist], and Spooner were a notable trio together."[7]
 
My mail to introduce you the price of cost is an ugly and incomplete extemporization, I'm not 
fit, but the content is the most interesting thing of all, ask me further not 
extemporized infos.
 
Write a "B" on the "E" letter of each Euro banknote (I do it since January 2002). The correct 
name of my continent is Buropa (Bureaupe).    :-)
 
Equal labour exchangers stands for unlimited free trade, Big Business, Big Media, Big Churches 
and Big Governments stands against it and need a world government (a world coup, an 
unprecedented absolute and conceitful regime) to survive, so now we need an effective network 
f all free individuals, privateers, real-NGOs to get class awareness and overthrow 
by non-violence the future Regime.

JCT: I don't mind world government as long as it is not in debt to loanshark banks to which 
they have granted the licenses to manufacture the planet's money. 

FT: Customers rates services, customers could trust on experienced customers, seems to be 
helpful: http://www.angieslist.com I mean: free speech - free standards - free choice. 
Toward a complete self-regulation and self-government: from greylists to consumers' rating 
standards, free standards make anarchy the opposite of chaos, more transparency and more 
useful and better organized informations. Coercion is violence and chaos. Free professional 
standards toward free laws and order. Simplifying everything within freedom.
Nice european antiprohibitionists: 
http://www.antiprohibitioniststudents.tk/ , interesting stuff and links. my signature: ciao!
federico.tortorelli@l...
Federico L. Tortorelli:informations pro-Liberty, brand new ideas
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/warren/4.html 
Par. 231.
http://www.proglobal.org/article.php?sid=8&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
The mutual transparent price-of-cost network:reducing prices and costs one another, freeing ?
all individuals, the way to supply many happy solutions to our world's problems. equity - 
competitiveness - freedom Within you lies the power for good, use it! THANK YOU!

JCT: Okay, you ideas have been transmitted to the top monetary reform minds in the world. 
What I suggest you do is get ready to join our Internet seminar and really learn the matter 
by doing the translation into Italian. And you'll be paid 2 Hours per hour that you translate. 
So contact Bernardo Gonzales and then spread the word to your Italian friends to tune in to 
the only banking systems engineering lectures in the world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. "The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS interest-free time-based 
currency United Nations C6 recommendation toGovernments in the 
http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm & http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 
& http://www.medpot.net Tel: 1.613.632.2334