Transcripts /Carnicom interviews on Sightings re: Chemtrails

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:33:1 -0500
From: "Kim Weber" <ohwarriorgoddess@earthlink.net>
Subject: Transcripts /Carnicom interviews on Sightings re: Chemtrails

PLEASE DISTRIBUTE!
Transcripts of two recent interview on Jeff Rense/Sightings
Guest: Clifford Carnicom (http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm  
and http://cactus.frenzmail.com )
Transcription from Real Audio, Part I
Jeff: The e-mails keep coming in. I just got one a few minutes ago from Robert.
Says, to a friend of his, David,
"David, go outside now and look up. You can't miss them. They're all over the
place. I caught the aircraft doing this but since it's night, I couldn't
identify it." This is signed by a very competent individual that I know, and
what is he talking about? He is talking about chemtrails. First two hours
tonight, an update on that disgusting phenomenon that is enraging many. It is
alarming many more. We will talk with Clifford Carnicom of www.carnicom.com ahead in
just a minute.
[Commercial Break]
[00:56]
Jeff: Clifford Carnicom that's c a r n I c o m, has been a self-employed
professional computer consultant for several years now. He resides in Santa Fe
New Mexico with his wife, Carol. He was previously a research scientist and a
federal employee for fifteen years with three different agencies, including the
United States Department of Defense, the Bureau of Land Management, and the U.
S. Forest Service. His technical background is extensive in the fields in
geodetic science, advanced mathematics, computer science and the physical
sciences. He is a remarkable man who has given a greatly of his life and time to
try to ferret out the truth and the reality of what is being done to us.
Something isn't right up there folks, and I know most of you listening who
are regulars to this program and my web site at www.rense.com have been following
this story for the last year and a half or so. They are spraying. Who are they?
We don't know. What are they spraying? We don't know. But they're doing
something up there and it's not only over the United States. As many of you know
we've gotten pictures from Australia, from Europe, from Bosnia, from all over
the world and it's the same old story. It's not right.
Many of you grew up watching propeller driven aircraft fly around the skies
DC6's DC7's and so forth. I remember then an occasionally contrail when jets
came along there were contrails. Contrails, of course, dissipate in seconds or
maybe minutes. What we're seeing now and what we've been seeing for the last
year and a half are trails that go from horizon to horizon. They'll then spread
out and if there are 8, 10,12 of them they'll occlude an entire blue sky in an
hour or two or three. And it doesn't take many aircraft to accomplish that. As
you know a normal plane can travel from horizon to horizon in a matter of
minutes, five to ten minutes depending upon variables.
And what about the atmosphere conditions? Well, the last time Clifford was
here we spent a lot of time on that and it is quite clear that under some
circumstances contrails will form. Under other circumstances they will not form.
However, chemtrails form apparently under all circumstances, because it's not
the same creature.
Let me welcome back to the program, now, Clifford Carnicom and let me salute
you Cliff for doing so much for so many of us and welcome back.
Cliff: Good evening, Jeff and thank you very much for the opportunity to
return to speak with you.
Jeff: Alright, You live in the great state of New Mexico.
Cliff: Yes. Santa Fe, New Mexico.
Jeff: Yeah, and I do remember, if I could just jump back to one thing you
said last time. One of the first photographic captures you made of chemtrails
over your area occurred in weather that was shall we say not conducive to the
formation of contrails?
Cliff: That's very true, Jeff. My initial photography work started in
February of 1999, and New Mexico is characterized by a region of extremely low
relative humidity on a general basis and these photographs pretty much speak for
themselves in terms of what they do and you described that pretty well at the
beginning. And, physically, simply is not possible by meteorological conditions
to develop into these cloud decks as you were describing.
Jeff: The humidity factor at the time you took your photographs that we
alluded to last time was how much, Clifford? And what do we need up there at
25-30,000 feet to see contrails form, that's water vapor?
Cliff: Yeah. All of the sources that I have been able to uncover, which is
roughly five to six, including the Naval Post Graduate School, we talked about
some of this last time, the Naval Post Graduate School in Monterey, the inventor
of cloud seeing, Vincent Schaeffer, Institute for Atmospheric Research. Every
single one of these sources really agree and coincide exactly that cloud
formation is not expected to occur below conditions of 70% humidity and
actually. Even that is considered unusual because that occurs primarily in salty
areas along the coast because salt is an absorbent of water and in fact is a
consideration of what we're doing here, also.
Jeff: What was the relative humidity, approximately, at the time you took the
photographs that are up on your web site? What was it, 14 or 17 or something
like that?
Cliff: Well, the average is 37. What I did was actually made a statistical
study of all, what would be considered the base of nine months, every day,
against the sample a sample of 37 days which were all documented on photography.
And the average of the entire base for the nine months was 30%
And the average of the 29 sample days, which are all, photographed and
documented was 37%, not nearly enough of a spread to account for any significant
difference what so ever.
Jeff: I get e-mail every day. You do, too. I have gotten hundreds of
photographs. You have probably gotten thousands of them sent to you. And to all
you who have participated and tried to help me and help Clifford to spread the
word, thank you. They're all appreciated. We certainly can't post them all, but
this is a remarkable event.
I just can't tell you, how amazing it is to me that more people don't seem to
notice what's going on right over their heads. And, maybe that's the game. Maybe
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was right. The best place to hide things, according to
Sherlock Holmes, was you know right in plain view and that's what seems to be
going on. These things cannot be mistaken. They cannot be missed and certainly
where I've lived, and where so many people who have written to me life, the
atmospheric conditions don't change from day to the next, the next, and the
next. One day they'll be nailed with chemtrail spray. The next day, a blue sky.
It's just amazing.
Cliff: It absolutely is. I don't know at what point recognition occurs with
each individual, but I do hope that every person will make a conscientious
effort to investigate and analyze the information that is being given to them
much of it courtesy of your show… To seriously analyze what is going on over
their head and come to some conclusions and get involved as they see fit.
Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Get involved as they see fit. What's really gratifying
to me, I think are these husbands, and/or wives who will continue to badger
their spouses about this thing and they'll get rejection, they'll get derision.
And then one day, they'll have that spouse out there and these things will be
will be laid down like big skywriting and something will click. And, the spouse
or the friend will figure it out and all of a sudden they're alarmed.
Cliff: That's right. I've uncovered several correspondences and e-mails to
that effect. It, at some point does become very personal.
Jeff: If it isn't personal folks… we're all in this together. There is one
particular photograph I have recently, Clifford. You probably have many. It's in
my headlines right now if you go to www.rense.com Take a look about 15-20 headlines
down, there, you'll see a headline that says "Oz chemtrails. Two jets, same
altitude. One sprays, one doesn't." Take a look at those photographs and
particularly the one I just talked about. There's a big fat dual trail, there. I
don't know if you've seen that one Clifford or not, but you've probably seen
others. Right next to this big fat dual chemtrail and a blue sky there's another
jet. There's not a thing coming out behind that second jet. Nada
Cliff: That's true, and I only have one phone line, so I'm not able to do
that right now. But I'm certainly aware of what you're speaking of and from the
devil's advocate point of view, I'm sure it would be raised that it is very
difficult to estimate the altitude of aircraft. However, we have a problem of
magnitude, frequency and severity that provide more than ample demonstration of
what you're talking about.
Jeff: Right. OK, and Clifford's web site. www.carnicom.com
[09:37] It is a must destination for any of you who haven't been there
yet.
Take your doubting, skeptical friends. Don't mock them. Don't put them down
Just take them over there.
Look at the pictures. Talk about it. Ask questions. Look at the pictures of
the mega-sprayers in particular, which just knock people's socks off. Alright,
let's talk about the recent EPA letter, Clifford, to kind of start our
discussion formally off, now.
Cliff: Sure, Jeff. And what I can do is bring up my material even though I
cannot get online, here. I thought this might be interesting to start things out
with because, basically, it gives us a status report of the official government
response to the claims that are being made. And, while I don't want to read the
entire letter, in the interest of time, I think certain key phrases or certain
points would be helpful as well as a history. And correspondence between myself
and David Pierce, another very hard working person out of Colorado, began in
December of 1999.
There's one peculiar phrase that keeps surfacing in each one of the replies
That phrase is that the EPA is "unaware" of any aerosol activities. They keep
using the word "unaware." What's interesting to me is, at what point does a
person become aware? In other words, the whole point of the correspondence
generated by myself and Dave is to make the EPA aware of the evidence that is
accumulating. And yet, each return reply continues to state that they are
unaware. There is a major disconnect between the information that is being
offered for evaluation and for investigation and the response which basically
denies the existence of the original claim.
There's another very interesting phrase here, too. In that, they state in
this letter that illegal applications or releases of toxic substances are
investigated by enforcement authorities at the Federal and State level and
enforcement action is taken if appropriate, according to the evidence in an
investigation. Since you believe the aerial contrails are the result of illegal
releases of chemicals or biological substances, you may wish to contact the
appropriate State regulatory agencies for consideration.
There are many interesting phrases in that sentence. Number one, there's an
acknowledgement that the Federal Government has an obligation to conduct an
investigation, and yet at the same time there is no investigation being
conducted. Secondly, they are stating that I believe something. Nothing that I
am presenting for the last two years is a function of my belief. It's a function
of information and evidence. It really isn't relevant what I believe. What is
relevant if for the EPA to consider and investigate the information and evidence
which has been presented to them. And then, thirdly, they defer their obligation
to a state level, which entirely defeat the purpose of the letter to begin
with.
Jeff: It's pretty funny if you look at it for what it says is two or three
things at once. You're right. It's silly. They're pretty good at it, though, in
a way, if you think about it. We're paying those people to lie to us. Hmmm. Six
nights a week we go live, coast to coast, on couple hundred stations plus the
Internet worldwide. Hello, to everybody around this troubled world of ours and
we'll be right back.
[Commercial Break]
[17:15]
Jeff: Hi. Right Back with you. I'm glad you're here, tonight. I'm Jeff Rense
with Clifford Carnicom. We're doing a chemtrails update. A lot of you listening
who have been watching for quite some time. The letter. It goes nowhere. It goes
round and around and the game is volleyball. They play little word games and we
pay for it
Cliff: That's right, and yet as we go the evidence does continue to
accumulate and the record is being developed, where this hopefully will lead to
a formal investigation at some point.
Jeff: Excuse me Clifford but not only does the evidence accumulate, but sick
people accumulate all the time. And I'm not saying that everyone who is sick out
there is being made sick by what is being sprayed on us, but there's quite
clearly some amazing circumstantial evidence for a connection there. I'm
suspecting also, that many people, I'm not a doctor, are being victimized by
mold or fungal infections from this stuff, whatever it is and/or related to this
stuff. And, doctors are not getting it. Doctors are saying flu-like, have you
heard this flu-like issue, folks. It's a flu-like thing you have. That means the
doctors don't know. They're looking for bacteria primarily, or maybe a virus,
but they don't test for viruses. They don't know what they're dealing with. So,
people are suffering from mold and fungal issues and sometimes those can lead to
secondary bacterial infections that can go to pneumonia.
Cliff: I do hope at the later part of our discussion to bring up some health
issues. I have generally avoided that because I wanted to have some solid
information to know what we're dealing with before I began to speak about it. I
do think that we're arriving at that point where we have some information to
know a little bit more concretely what the likely health consequences are.
A final comment with respect to the EPA and that is that it needs to be
stated that Carol M. Browner of the Environmental Protection Agency, (she's in
administration), did receive by certified mail a physical sample of material.
Along with this, a request to have that material identified and a test disclosed
to the American public. That information did, actually after it was sent it was
discovered in addition to the amazing qualities of it by itself it did contain
biological components. It needs to be stated that Carol M. Browner refuses to
acknowledge the existence of that material even though we know that it was
received by certified mail. And she refuses to release the results of any
testing on it. I will continue to restate this until Carol M. Browner does
respond and acknowledge the existence of this material and does disclose the
results of testing to the American people.
Jeff: And should be leaving her soon enough and washing her hands of it.
Cliff: And so, we transfer it to the successor.
Jeff: Let's do it.
Cliff: Right.
Jeff: OK. Alright. Key points of research to date that you have been mounting
on our behalf. We've got relative humidity studies, pH, electrolysis, and
spectrometry. A lot of people called and asked, why don't they get a mass
spectrometer out there, and some work with that. That's being done, isn't
it?
Cliff: Well, I don't have a mass spectrometer and there's a call for many
professionals to become involved in this. And what I wanted to do is summarize
at least those critical points of the research that's been conducted over the
last two years. That basically establishes a case that we are being affected;
that there are legitimate claims for injection of materials into our atmosphere
on a sustained basis. We did speak about the relative humidity studies as we
started, so that lays the foundation for it.
Once we acknowledge or accept that we have an incongruence with respect to
existing conditions and what's forming over our head, a next significant finding
was that the data indicates from citizens really across the country. Roughly
dozen states are involved now 65 observations, probably a couple score of
individuals that on their own merit have conducted pH acidity/alkalinity tests
of the rainwater. And these tests are showing a 20-25 times increase in the
alkalinity of the rainfall this occurring just in the last 12 months of the
year. This is a phenomenal event. And the acidity, or alkalinity, of the
atmosphere is one of the single factors, if you were after any single factor to
identify the composition of the air, that would be one of them.
Jeff: Very good. Alright. Keep that in mind as we take a pause and reflect.
Twenty-five fold increase in the alkalinity of rainwater…. Not two times. Not
five times. A twenty-five fold increase...
[Commercial Break]
[28:00]
Jeff: Chemtrails. The spraying of America. The spraying of much of the
developed world.
I live in the tri-cities Washington area, and I was born here. I have been
feeling more angry due to the spraying all the time. I can't believe all the
spraying that was done this last Sunday, the seventh. There were 4-6 planes Two
going west and two going east. All day long. The haze this morning was
sickening. I would like to put an ad in the local Nickel Newspaper, to try to
get people together and go to the news station here and demand they do a story.
As many of you know, your local media, be it television, or radio, or print,
will not help you cover this story. Go ahead Clifford.
Cliff: Thank you Jeff. And returning to those pH studies. Those studies were
not done by accident. Those were by design. There was reason to conduct those pH
tests and it's interesting that the results actually confirmed the suspicion,
which in a way is driving a lot of what is happening, here. When you're remote
from something, you have to use basically analysis and deduction and try to get
at the thing. And I do appreciate the help from citizens across the country that
have become involved in that testing.
Jeff: 25 times increase in alkalinity. That's extraordinary, to see the
least.
Cliff: And also if you consider the attention that has been given in this
country to the so-called acid raid problem in the 70s and 80s and how many
billions of dollars were spent to publicize and research that problem?
Jeff: Gee. Funniest thing how Congress was concerned about that, too, wasn't
it?
Cliff: Right, right. So you know there's some real disconnect that has become
evident the more we speak
That work with pH studies later was substantiated with electrolysis work.
That's not really in a quantitative sense but basically to confirm the existence
of ions in the, salt ions in the rainwater and the electrolysis work did confirm
the existence of that, let's say conductor within the rainfall.
I'll try to keep these segments fairly brief because I do want to try and
emphasize some new information that I'm working with. But it would be helpful, I
think, to summarize these key points of research and then some of the material
types that have been identified and then try to get into some of the new
material, there.
Jeff: You're doing fine. Just keep rolling ahead
Cliff: The next topic in terms of key points of research does involve
spectrometry. Spectrometry can be a very expensive field to get into. I'm an
individual. I don't have that many resources. Do just the best I can. I did
acquire two visual light spectrometers and as I go along I will say that I
education myself.
I don't know everything but I'm willing to learn. I have a pretty solid
background in the sciences. But, I'm exposing myself to new material all the
time. And, the more you get into this, the more deeply you're covering really
advanced fields of science that are going on. But the work in spectrometry was
the first time that we had an analytical method of trying to deduce the
existence of an element in the atmosphere. This work, anything that I do can be
duplicated by anyone with sufficient interest. That's the reason for
establishing it. This is not a single individual offering one case. Anyone in
the country of sufficient interest can get involved in this and either prove or
disprove to themselves the evidence that I'm providing.
But, the data thus far that I have captured through spectrometry does
indicate the presence of barium in the atmosphere. That presence is not to be
expected by any means. There is two ways that I have done this. Number one is
you just take straight observation. And observations are best repeated over
time. That's what I've done. This is not an easy process to conduct, especially
with the resources that I have. You can require, have very sophisticated tools
to accomplish this work. You take observations and multiple observations
increase your reliability. Those were done. They are consistently showing the
presence of barium. Roughly seven out of eight spectral lines have been
identified thus far.
I have also looked at the elements that are expected to be in the atmosphere
and I'm teaching myself about that as well. You learn what is supposed to be up
there. And basically, it's one of abundance. There's a whole list of these. What
happens is you go through this whole list of what is supposed, there. They all
match with the spectrometry results. I find every one of them. You're only gross
levels. These are high level elements that we are talking about hydrogen,
helium, oxygen, carbon, silicon, nitrogen, and magnesium … this type of thing.
Those that are in abundance.
What happens is that barium is showing up, there. Barium shouldn't even be on
the list. It's way down there. Not even close to being a candidate. So, this is
another very important source of data which is offered for professionals in this
country to duplicate and settle for themselves, along with everything else that
I have talked about. So, that is an analytical tool, which for the first time
gives us something concrete to let's say, file a claim on.
And the last key point of research is very recent, started on December 28th,
I think it was, December 23rd. And, I must say that this work resulted from a
contribution from a member of the message board that's maintained on the web
site. I have tried to give full credit to that person, and I wish to continue to
do so.
I don't know that that individual wants his or her name released so the
person goes by a pseudonym on the board, and that name is Lookingup, on the
board. This person described very specific observational techniques involving
sunlight to reveal the presence of particulate matter in our skies. I paid close
attention to that rather quietly and conducted those same observations on my
own, and the information that this person was giving was exactly correct and was
easily able to be duplicated. And it's really a most astounding finding and I
hope to talk about that in actually much greater detail later in the
conversation.
Jeff: K
Cliff: But, basically, the evidence is showing the existence of really
extraordinary amounts of particulate matter in the skies and it's really most
phenomenal. And, the amazing thing is this is now something that is becoming
quite concrete. Anyone with sufficient interest and a little bit of technical
measures in there, but it actually can be observed with the naked eye, some
magnification is better. These experiments, these findings can be duplicated
across the country. People can begin to convince themselves of the truth of this
matter. If there is one that that I hope to do it is to, again, motivate people
in this country to take this issue very seriously and to find out the truth
Don't think that we're dealing with a joke. We're dealing with very serious
issues, here. And the means to bring this to the attention of everyone in the
country are becoming available to us.
Jeff: Alright. Very well said. Go ahead.
Cliff: The next topic I'd like to review just for a few minutes, before we
talk about the particulate mater that is being found in more detail. The
physical types of material that have been reported with this aerosol work. There
is five types that have showed up, so far. The first is fibrous material that we
talked about a little bit with respect to the EPA. This is most unusual
material. Sub-micron, 2-3 tenths of a micron thick.
Very elastic, very adhesive, very kinky nature. Wavy and kinky, appears to be
fully synthetic. And on professional examination under a very high quality
microscope did reveal the presence of biological components, which does have an
ominous tone to it.
That was never even known at the time that it was sent to the EPA. The
material was so astounding in its qualities that it was a sufficient need to
have that material identified with the EPA. While she had the material, that is
Carol M. Browner, it was THEN discovered that there were biological components
in there.
Jeff: Alright. It's all on the table. As Clifford Carnicom says, "It's out
there." And anyone who cares can get involved and do their own research and come
up with a [inaudible]
This is not conjecture. This is not hyperbole. This is all reality. We will
be back.
[Commercial Break]
[41:00]
Jeff: Hi. Welcome back. We're glad you're here. I'm Jeff Rense at rense.com
We're pulling, it's getting close to six million total hits a month, now.
Growing all the time. Don't forget all of these programs are archived for your
listening convenience. Around the world, anywhere, all you have to do is get
online. And, if you don't want to listen online you can buy a cassette of the
program and any of the other thousands of cassettes that we have in our library
now… Jim Watkins of Watkins Audio does a magnificent job of producing a first
class audiocassette. 888-836-4670 gives you the full three-hour program for $12.
You cannot touch that anywhere. OK, Clifford, go right ahead.
Cliff: Thank you very much Jeff. Any of these physical materials that I'm
speaking of, I do that when I have multiple reports. Something spoken of once,
it's very unlikely that I would describe it. Anything I'm speaking of, we have
multiple reports of. I have samples that I have looked at under the microscope.
And while we're at this, I want to offer an apology to folks in the sense that I
just cannot keep up but as we get more involved hopefully, this will extend to
other people as well. We have some more physical samples that need
identification. I honestly can't keep up with them right now and there's a hope
in the real future, in the near future that we'll get some lab assistance on
some of these things that are going on. I hope people will bear with us and
patience on the samples as well as the e-mails that I can't keep up with. It's
all read. It's all analyzed and it's all going to be in the picture at some
point.
Two or three others real quickly in terms of what has shown up. Another is a
gel type material, sort of a goo-like material. It appears to be in connection
with lower altitude operations.
Jeff: Right. It started out in Washington State, I guess, several years ago
in that small town up there and has been reported in numerous other areas.
Cliff: It's more of a specific thing, where you have a specific location that
is being targeted. I have received two or three of these. I have put that under
the microscope also. Again, that material also shows a biological aspect to me.
The photograph's up on the web site. People can judge for themselves. Reports
that come along with this generally seem to be of really a highly toxic nature.
People have gotten real sick from some of this. These, and these are, we have to
confess, none of these samples are in abundance at any one location. There is
enough of the samples, though to warrant investigation which is really my claim
all along.
Thirdly, there are a crystal or powder form that has been reported. And I
have samples of these also. They are crystal. The initial tests I have run with
those were consistent with the presence of barium. They haven't been positively
identified chemically, yet. That may connect with what we're going to talk about
later tonight with this particulate matter, but there is a crystalline powder
form that has been sampled also. Again, more than once.
The last is one really that I have observed. A lot of people haven't talked
about and yet I think it's something again that may be right in front of our
faces that deserves a lot more attention. On another interview that I did, a
caller had no idea of some information that I have run into in my observations
and she starts describing something that I had seen myself numerous times and
caught my attention. That is, the rainwater which I started collecting in June
of 1999, which by the way was very rare during the year of 19, um of 2000. I
take that back … That was in the summer of 2000 that I started collecting
rainfall; very hard to find in the Santa Fe area. That rainwater is showing a
white fibrous material in it repeatedly. And, the first time I saw that I
honestly dismissed it because I figured that water had to be contaminated or
something.
Jeff: Clear to the naked eye.
Cliff: Yes. It has repeated itself over and over. Very consistent.
That's also been put under the microscope.
I had calls coming in from the other side of the country that were describing
this type of material. This elderly lady that was collecting this data in New
York and she was describing exactly what I had seen and I didn't even get the
chance to tell her what I had seen, so this came from a completely independent
source. Again, a case for a formal investigation.
The last physical type of material that I hope to talk about quite a bit
tonight and that is a particulate matter that is now apparently quite easily
observed in the sky. I also would like to mention that it appears as though the
military agencies have a very heightened interest in the web site over the last
few days since I have been putting up this new information. This new information
will concern this particulate matter and also will concern considerations of the
HAARP facility.
Transcription from Real Audio, Part II
Jeff: It raises two issues. Are they letting you do their research for them
or are they watching to see how much you are able to discover? One can take that
either way. The last time Clifford was on, by the way, if you want to listen to
that program in the archives, you can. I ticked off a few of the very the
highest level government agencies which continually watch his site.
Cliff: Yes, and that activity has very definitely increased over the last
couple of days. And heightened interest is certainly being indicated thus far.
Should we start, Jeff, with this particulate matter subject?
When we do this, this will become a little more technical. Like I say I will
always try to keep the audience in my mind, but this is a case where we have
some new information that needs to be analyzed carefully. The same process was
gone over before through any of the fibrous material, the gel, the pH studies,
the electrolysis. That's all on the record, on the web site.
Jeff: A quick question, Clifford… The fibrous material, the gel, with
biological components… Are we to, you did mention the [inaudible] the Washington
State [inaudible] first dump. These tend to be localized. We don't. Do we think
these are coming from the mass, broad sprayings of broad areas or are these
localized dumps perhaps from lower level aircraft?
Cliff: I think for the majority of these we would characterize as localized
operations of those previous types that we were speaking of. Because they don't
fit the science of the cloud formation and this type of thing
Consumes most of our interest visually, certainly. I have seen video of the
fibrous material, which actually came from Oklahoma in 1997. The video quality
was very poor because the person was so jumpy but it was clear, as could be that
that area of coverage, which was Oklahoma, was certainly being covered with this
fibrous material.
This particulate mater is really most fascinating. I think what I'll do is
make a general statement of what is being seen and found and then go into more
detail.
Jeff: We've got three minutes until our break at the top of the hour.
Cliff: And you just go ahead and cut. I can resume. In general, general
characteristics of this material are: it appears to be white in color. There's a
question of light scattering that will come up as I talk more, but it appears to
be white. It's highly reflective. It appears to be charged, which is really
fascinating element of what is going on. The behavior of it is indicating that
it has a charged nature to it, electrostatically or whatever. And the size, I'm
doing the best I can with this stuff and the viewer themselves and listeners
As to whether that makes sense. My best size estimate of this material right
now is at the submicron through about 10-micron level. For comparison, a blood
cell is about 8 microns across; a hair is about 60-100 microns.
Jeff: Virus would be 1 or less.
Cliff: Right. That's right, so this is the size range that I'm coming up with
now and I'll try to explain where that's coming from as we go. These are general
characteristics of it. Now, in more detail if people… some folks hopefully will
have the benefit of the web site available to them. For those that don't I will
do my best to describe these findings.
But, what I've done is shot a video three separate times now. The first on
December 22nd, …the second on December 28th, …the third on January 3rd of this
year. Results are consistent across the board. The material is visible in each
of them. However this video shoot on January 3rd of this year was most amazing.
Extremely concentrated. So, there is variation between the days. This segment on
January 3rd, nothing like it I've seen. It did follow two days. January 1st was
a day of extensive and intensive aerosol activity over the Santa Fe southwest
region, here. I do give consideration to lateral drift of this material, also. I
understand that's a component. However, it appears to correlate directly with
that heavy activity two days prior.
Jeff: Alright and lateral drifts can be prodigious at times, depending on
conditions, of course. Stand by. We'll come back at the top of the hour with
Clifford Carnicom. His web site again www.carnicom.com
Take your skeptical friends there and sit down and spend a little while and
see what happens. We'll be right back.
[commercial break]
[60:00:37]
Jeff: And welcome back to hour number two. I'm Jeff Rense, Coast-to-Coast and
around the world with Clifford Carnicom; our first two hours tonight. It's been
a great first hour; much more in this next hour.
Clifford why don't you go ahead and just reset where you were and go right
after it.
Cliff: Thank you very much Jeff, and I do very much appreciate the latitude
that you give me to describe and discuss that which shows itself to be
important.
Jeff: My pleasure
Cliff: We are in the process of describing some recent observations of
particulate matter, which are really most amazing. And unfortunately, the stills
that I am able to capture from a video do not do this justice but this is the
price of the Internet right now and the technology that we have. What is of
tremendous value here is that this observation can be captured on film, which I
think, is somewhat of a surprise. There are people that have been describing
this for some time. Actually, I received my first report several months ago
Didn't dismiss it but just registered it as I hadn't actually seen what they
were speaking of. But, as this was described in more detail on the message
board. I know that many people are seeing it and fortunately, and with the help
of this individual's description I was able to apply a camera to it. And that's
the real value here is that this can be captured on film.
Jeff: Oh, yeah!
The video is absolutely amazing. People will have to sort of extend their
imagination a little bit as we go. But you're just seeing one shot of this and
of those that have seen this video. Which again, the advantage is that this can
be replicated across the country by those with sufficient interest. Really,
there's sort of a look of shock on people's faces. You can analyze the heck out
of anything you want but when you see something it just registers as to what
you're really talking about what you're saying. This is one of those cases.
Because, it simply doesn't make sense. As you said, at the beginning,
something's not right. Believe me this is showing us that something is not
right. You have tremendous activity. It literally, if you can imagine looking
into a molecule or something like that where you have tremendous activity. More
particles than you can possibly even imagine counting. Literally like being in
some kind of cyclotron or cloud chamber or something like this. It's just
astounding to see and at some point it is certainly a call for and necessary for
the nation to be able to see in a motion frame system rather than just a still
that I'm able to. Even the video that I do have doesn't do justice because of
the resolution sacrifices I have to make on the net.
Jeff: Right. Clifford, how do we how that this comes from above from
aircraft? And, where do you find it? Trees, cars, ground, grass? How are we
coming up with the samples?
Cliff: Yeah, let me describe the setup that is required to view this because
it is very specific and it's entirely dependent upon lighting conditions. Very
specific lighting conditions are required.
Jeff: That's the technique.
Cliff: That's right and it's real important to understand that this is not
real easily seen, and yet with the proper method it can be seen. The setup is
this and by the way I need to express that people must use extreme caution if
they're involved in magnification of any kind. You do not want to look directly
at the sun. Basically, you're going to be doing everything but looking at the
sun when you do this but you have to protect your eyes, especially with any
magnification. You just must be careful.
The setup is the best configuration that I have found thus far for example
would be a wall, a high building, say, roughly, 60-80 feet in distance and
roughly sixty feet high. It doesn't require that but there is an advantage in
having a little distance away, but not too much in that you can focus at
infinity if you're trying to use a camera or binoculars or something like that.
If you're too close to it, you won't be able to focus properly and the results
are not as clear. But if you were to pick a roof or a building, a flat roof is
great, which we have in Santa Fe, here. Get that distance away from it and place
yourself right on that shadow line.
What you're basically doing is you're after the corona of the sun. That
intense brilliant portion of the sunlight immediately outside of the boundary of
the sun, but you don't actually want the sun. You want the most light you can
possibly capture, without actually looking at the sun. And if you position your
eye at that point, you know, you're dealing with an inch or two in terms of
placement. It's very critical. If you will look right at that corona. And, if
you're doing it by eye, you want to just sit for 30 seconds or so and let your
eye get accustomed. Be very careful.
They have been visible and are visible by naked eye, to me. I suppose there
will be a variance in people's eyesight but because of the extreme reflectivity
of the material, they can be seen by the naked eye. The best simple method
appears to be to use a pair of binoculars in doing this, and you're focusing
right on that roof edge, in that corona and you're looking for particulate
matter which really has a bizarre motion which is important to describe, also.
And, I cannot, overemphasize, if you're using binoculars to make sure you don't
get that sun. It's very dangerous. Block out the sun but get as much as you can
and the three times that I have done this formerly I have found the material in
each case.
Like I say, the one on January 3rd was an amazing event. Also, In these three
times, the person was in Santa Fe. That second one on December 28th was in
Arches National Park in Utah. Now, this would be considered by most people,
should be, one of the most pristine environments that we can provide in our
country. These results show up there equally well. The evidence indicates that
this material is across the country and is at a level of saturation that most of
us could not believe. The fascinating thing is this material is not visible
under normal lighting conditions in any way and it takes this most intense
sunlight.
You're dealing with about a foot or two arc that you're looking at to capture
this extreme light reflection off of it, and on these video shots I'm working
with that's extreme magnification that's going on there. That's a digital camera
that will go up to about 40 power. It's the camera that is able to capture these
to that quality. So, these are some of the general characteristics of and the
setup for it where people should be able to replicate these observations. I
encourage them to do so because this part of the collection of evidence. It
becomes difficult to deny and those people who are trying to discredit these
observations will have to do better than claiming they are insect wings or a UFO
hoax, which has already been directed my way. We've got a little bit more than
that to deal with, let alone that it is January.
In terms of the size of these particles, I'm doing some work myself, trying
to get the most information we can from what we're seeing. A very important
characteristic that we're looking at is what is the size of those particles And
the information I'm able to come up with thus far is indicating to me that
they're at the five micron or so would be my best estimate right now. But, you
know I can't pin it down to a micron. That's why I have a range. The quality of
the light that it reflects, being a white light can be used to estimate the size
of the particles relative, well just the size of the particles period. It's
related to the wavelength of the light.
The reason that this is such an important question… We want to know the size
of the material because we want to know if it can be filtered or not. Filters
down to one micron are generally considered to be a pretty sophisticated filter.
And those of us with not many resources, since the EPA and the professionals, so
far, don't seem to want to get involved in this, it looks like it will be done
by independent researchers across the country. This material needs to be
filtered and so we need to know if it's feasible or practical that it will be
filtered. I think that there is a very good chance that this material can be
collected in a high quality filter and that's the direction that I will be going
in the very near future.
Another topic that comes up is people will say that this material drifts so
how the heck do you know that it has anything to do with what's going on
overhead? Well, just allow for lateral drift. That's OK. These aircraft are
covering the nation. You know, you can figure it out. It could easily be several
hundred miles. A thousand miles was the one I figured out the other day. The
wind on this particular day was fairly light. I always look at my observations
at altitude, not at ground level. Allow for the wind and that does not dismiss
the observations in any way. As I say the level of saturation seems to be so
much more than any of us could have anticipated.
Jeff: If I may interject one thing here. About, I sent the link to you and I
think it was 1997, that
John Brow who pioneered the technique as it were using a video camera and
shooting up into a daylight sky with a roof overhang to block out the actual sun
itself and to pick up the corona.
He was able to isolate a lot of strange and anomalistic items as they were
flicking through his field of view. He actually caught a disk over LA on two of
thirty frames a second approximately. Two of the three frames had a perfect disk
in there that he was able to catch. But, the point is, that during the time that
John Bro's technique was being use by thousands of them, there were no
particulates in any of the freeze frames that I saw. None.
Cliff: It would be interesting on the date of that because the evidence here
would indicate that this level of concentration would have occurred in the last
two years
Jeff: That certainly confirms it, at least that I saw.
Cliff: Right. So, you know, the work before, to this point, has, sort of on a
deductive process predicted the existence of such material. It is really quite a
shock when you see the magnitude and the amount of the material. And I will say
that will vary according to day but this particular case was really most
amazing.
In terms of that drift rate, if you now allow for the fact that there is
lateral drift doesn't really change the picture.
Another interesting is this one of vertical drift. There are many people who
claim that you put something up there and it will be up there for weeks and
months and you'll never see it. That can be true.
The information is there to show the vertical drift related to particle size.
And, it is true that particles of sufficiently small size could stay aloft weeks
or months or even years. But, at the level that seems to be going up here, we
are dealing in the 5, 10 micron, one-micron range. The numbers that I have
indicate that if you have a five-micron particle that will take roughly 33-48
hours to descend. You know, that's disregarding lateral drift, of course. But,
descending would be roughly two days from 35,000 feet at flight altitude. So
it's not necessarily the case that we're talking about that this stuff would
take forever to get down there. It certainly takes a while, but it again, in
this particular case certainly coincided with the
Observations were taken two days after an extremely intensive operation over
Santa Fe is when this video was taken.
Jeff: Alright. I follow you. We are locked in. We'll pause for just a couple
of minutes, and come right back.
Clifford Carnicom. His web site carnicom.com. Take a look. You'll be amazed
if you haven't seen it.
[Commercial Break]
[01:17:40]
Jeff: Okay. We're back. Clifford Carnicom. And, rolling right through this
hour so fast already. We're talking about particulate matter; particles in the
air. We're not talking about the biological component issues anymore. We're
taken care of that earlier, which again were not particularly wide spread. We
don't know what caused them. They were in isolated areas. They did have biology
in them. They don't have anything to do with what we're talking about now.
Cliff: That's correct, Jeff, and thank you for making the distinction. We
don't want to oversimplify that which is very a very complex program.
The next question that I'm working with right now is what are the expected
concentrations? What do you expect to see? By the way, this material appears to
satisfy all of the expected behavior of a metallic particle. So even the
question of particle counts alone is not sufficient to answer the question.
Let's just consider a question of a particle count. The information I have and
by the way Vince Schaffer has a pretty good book on that, he was the inventor of
cloud seeding and has written a book in detail on the atmosphere.
Here's the numbers that I have, and we'll try to make a little sense of
these. And, by the way, the representative sample that I took, I'm looking at a
case of suburban central Arizona. So, I'm trying to be a little more
conservative, something that would be a little more industrialized most likely
than Santa Fe, at least comparable to a conservative estimate of what to
expect.
Jeff: All of you can, by the way, see a picture of these particles on
carnicom.com. Look for the chemtrail link, take that, and you'll see them, right
in the middle.
Cliff: Remember that one of the cases taken was in Moab, Utah in Arches
National Park, a very relatively isolated environment from industry and the
results were quite similar up there. If you had particles at 10-micron size in
the sky, the expected concentration is roughly 30 particles per cubit feet. In
this case I'm looking at. If the particles were five microns in size, you'd have
300 per cubic feet. And, if the particles were one micron in size, you'd have
30,000 per cubic feet. Bear in mind that we appear to have a satisfaction of a
metallic criterion, here, not just or physical material. Now, the viewers and
listeners, unfortunately, cannot see the video yet until this gets out there or
they create their own. The count on this is just overwhelming. I'm trying to
think how I can get a count you know, photographically and it's going to be a
little difficult, I think.
Jeff: Depth of field and all that. How are you going to isolate? OK.
Cliff: It is absolutely incredible the number of particles. There is really
no end. If I were to try and hazard any kind of guess as to what we're dealing
with, I would place it in the scores of thousands within that cubic foot or
couple of couple of cubic feet area. I mean, it's just difficult to describe how
dense and how many particles are in the sky. It's almost like looking through
rainfall or raindrops of particulate matter.
Jeff: Micron raindrops.
Cliff: That's why, again, that the size of this material will be very
important to deduce and/or determine because that has a big bearing on what's
expected out there.
Jeff: Where do we get a filter?
Cliff: Well, me being a sort of a Gerry-rigger, basically, I'm trying to make
my own. I think the question is
Where the heck are the professionals in this country?
Jeff: We've got a lot of universities out there, you know, physics labs.
Cliff: Where is the EPA? It is time to get some work done one this. I will be
trying to create a filter on my own. There are some electrostatic filters out
there, which I have some promise with that do at least call at the micron level.
Whether or not that is true, time will tell. That is a real question. Where are
the professionals? You have a question and you see it. What is it? So that's a
charter for all of those in the Universities as well as government
institutions.
Jeff: Yeah. Any of you out there affiliated with universities teaching,
professors, whatever, and would like to offer helping hand…Carnicom.com is the
web site and you can e-mail Cliff right through there.
You can also e-mail me and I'll make sure Clifford gets it straight away. He
is a busy man. I'm so glad you're here tonight. We'll take our break at the
bottom of the hour. We're not going to get anywhere near finished with our
material. We'll try to talk Cliff into coming back very soon.
[Commercial Break]
1:27:50
Jeff: Hi. We're back. I'm Jeff Rense with Clifford Carnicom. We're talking
about the horrendous spectacle going on over our heads. And I do remember one
day bringing a John Deere tractor salesman. I was talking to him. He was in the
office I said come on. It was a particularly heavy spray day. I said come out
here.
Look up here, what do you see. Really wild. A lot of contrails up there.
I said, "Look carefully. Do contrails go from horizon to horizon? Do you see
a checkerboard? Do you see grids? What do you see out there?"
The more he looked. You could see the light, Cliff. It was on a rheostat.
Getting brighter and brighter.
He said "Oh, my god! That's not right!" I said "Correct."
He said, "I'm going to call my congressman today"
Of course, he gave it a shot and the funny thing was the next day same exact
weather conditions, blue sky to start the day. No spraying. So, I called the
office I said ask what's his name to go outside and look
And he called back and said thank you, thank you very much.
Same commercial traffic going by overhead, not a mark in the sky. Anyway, OK.
We're talking to Clifford Carnicom, if you just joined us late. Clifford has
agreed to come back Sunday the 14th to continue to go through the list of
things, including health issues. Environment versus health consciousness matters
as well. We might be able to take some calls on Sunday as well, so I think
Clifford very much for that. OK, my friend, go right ahead.
Cliff: Yeah. Thank you Jeff, and as the situation as you described. There can
be no turning back once that point of recognition is reached.
Jeff: That's right.
Cliff: Another very important quality. Maybe the one of the most important,
in the end of this material is that it appears to be charged. And, that
deduction is based on observation of this material. That didn't really register
with me when I first saw it. It just really catches you by surprise when you see
it. But, it's really like a bombardment, very chaotic. This material… This was a
calm day that this was taken. The particles do not follow the air currents.
They're shooting off in all directions. It's like looking into an atom.
And I want to say that just about an hour or so before the show I received an
e-mail from an individual who is on the message board. This individual I have to
give a lot of credit to, is very astute. Based upon the still, alone, was able
to make a series of deductions which appear to be exactly correct related to the
motion of the material, the charge-like nature of the material. A lot of credit
goes to him. He was able to determine a lot just from a still which doesn't even
begin to do credit to what I have been able to see with the video. But, a case
for being charged is that the particles do not follow any kind of uniform
motion. It may be that they are repelling one another. The movement shoots off
in all directions.
And it is also deceiving on the stills for there may be many people thinking
that these are streamers or like you know like we were talking about the fibrous
material, something that has length… These do not have a dimension of length.
This is particulate matter. When you get into some higher level physics, here
there really is a question of what kind of mass to deal with here. Whether you
are dealing just with light energy alone. There are particles that don't have
any mass. It's really quite amazing.
So, there is a strong case for the fact that this material appears to be
electrically charged, and that has some major consequences in terms of
applications. Once you start asking well what the heck are you doing with that
stuff once it's up there, and that's what I'll hopefully get into a little bit
here, later and continue if we don't finish. That's an extremely important
characteristic. And people need to realize that these are particles and what
you're seeing is a trail of light. We may be not even seeing the particle at
all, in fact I don't suspect that you really are. You're seeing the light
reflected from that and that's leaving a trail, which is captured, on film over
a period of time of the frame. So, you need to imagine this point material and
you need to imagine you have a video at some point that will give you a more
accurate picture of what is happening.
Just another couple facts of interest that I'm coming up with so far and that
is that the small visible particle is apparently on the order of two tenths of a
micron. That's very surprising. I would not think that the human eye can detect
that. But it can and I suspect that it does have to do with the light.
Jeff: That's like seeing a virus. A very small virus.
Cliff: That's right. That's right. I would that it undoubtedly would have to
do with the light.
Jeff: It's got to be refracting or processing light somehow to make it
visible, I think.
Cliff: Exactly. And that came across 2-3 times in the source.
Another interesting fact is that the size of the cloud condensation nuclei
that we talked about before is on that same order of 2-3 tenths of a micron
Extremely small. These are just some of the factual information that is out
there because it will help us later on as we put the picture together of what
this material involves.
Jeff: Again, this particulate matter is rather new to the whole conundrum of
chemtrails. Well, we weren't really looking for them, so we don't really know if
they were here a year or two ago. They may have been.
Cliff: That's right. I think. You know. The research has predicted the
existence of particulate matter, actually metallic salts is what is being
predicted.
Jeff: But electrostatically charged?
Cliff: Yeah, I think, there's definitely some surprises, here. That are
coming out at this level, that's for sure. There appear to be two categories of
particulate mater in the sky. One is formed from mechanical processes like the
grinding down erosion of rock, creation of dust, that sort of thing. The other
is a result of chemical processes. Excuse me actually, the sunlight alone can
break down matter into smaller particles.
Jeff: Sure
Cliff: The two classes apparently in size, the mechanical material,
apparently on the order of five microns or greater and the chemical products are
on the order of less than a micron. And, the reason I emphasize the size so much
is because as I described earlier we need to know what we're dealing with to
learn how to collect it and detect it. To know what we're dealing with.
It's also of interest that to the supposed credit of the EPA the claims are
made that our particulate matter counts are actually in the process of
decreasing is what we're expecting to find. Scientific American publication
Atmosphere, Climate and Change, published in 1999, written by a Nobel Prize
winner in chemistry states that the particulate matter in the sky, those
emissions, those counts have actually decreased due to our pollution control
standards and this type of thing. If that's a case certainly it presents a
contradiction as to why we're seeing such a phenomenal event, here. Certainly it
bears an explanation, at the very least. And the existence of this material, I
think that should be of great concern to each of us. There are…
Jeff: Not to mention our elected officials, our public guardians. Good Lord,
even if it turns out to be NOTHING, they sure as hell ought to look into it.
Cliff: Exactly right. That's really been my approach the whole time. My job
is to present the information that substantiates the case for investigation I
believe that there are criminal acts that are taking place in our skies and I
believe that there is a need to account for them and to have the results
disclosed.
Jeff: Completely well said. Well stated. I concur. We will take a pause and
come back.
Our final segment tonight with Clifford Carnicom who will return on Sunday,
this coming Sunday on the 14th to finish up a lot of very important material as
well. We'll try and catch some of your calls at that time as well. OK, we'll be
right backs. Stay with us.
[Commercial Break]
[1:40:35]
Jeff: OK. Back with Clifford Carnicom. We've got one segment left Clifford.
Go ahead and let's put as much into it as we can. You have been looking very
hard at this and the more look the more you find.
Cliff: I'm going to read a sentence from that e-mail that I referred to
earlier sort of a final sentence from this individual that made an analysis and
really had no idea what I'm doing and has done this independently. Has done this
completely independently. Here's one of his final statements: "I have personally
shot a lot of video outdoors upwards of several hours per week and I can
guarantee you that I have never encountered anything like this in any of my
images. Memory, however, brings to mind images from inside an atomic cloud
chamber which I had the good fortune to observe first hand at the Museum of
Science and Industry in Chicago as a Boy and those were definitely charged
particles."
Transcription from Real Audio, Part III
Cliff: The motion and behavior of this material is really an extremely
characteristic that we need to consider at all times in our evaluation of it. We
don't have any indication of it just being dust by any means.
There was a report issued in the New England Journal of Medicine, December 14
of last year
The title of that article by a Dr. Weir (sp?), Harvard School of Public
Health, is "Particulate Air Pollution and Mortality: Clearing the Air" and in
that report this doctor basically states, well his line is this:
"The evidence suggests that the association between fine particle
concentrations and mortality is linear across the entire range of current
concentrations." Translated the more fine stuff you have out there, the more
that people die. So, it is an issue to be taken very seriously.
It is also of interest, that, back in March, I suppose it would be of renewed
interest that in March of last year in 1999, I actually conducted my own study
because I thought that was a direction we should be going. I gathered data from
a New Mexico State Environmental Department of particulate count across the
state of New Mexico at the 2 and a half-micron level or less. I spent a good
week and a half working on that doing quite a bit of programming. Yeah, That was
in March of 2000 of last year that I was working on it. Wrote programs, analyzed
the data. Quite an effort. And the study was done in good faith. And, the result
of that showed a very statistical important difference between the data of 1999
and the three previous years.
It was of interest that those individuals that have an interest in my work
immediately came out with a counter report using data from the EPA, which
claimed that it refuted the results of my report. So, there was, let's say a
very aggressive interest in attempting to refute the results of that individual
study that I did
The amazingly prompt response analyzing a tremendous amount of data for some
supposedly an individual was at least interesting.
I guess it would be best to talk about where we are going to go next time
because obviously we didn't make it through here. But, there's a major topic
that now plays in with consideration of HAARP, which is High Active Auroral
Research Program. Ionosphere Research Program. What's interesting to me is I put
off issues unless I have a basis for investigating them. What's happened here in
my case is instead of starting with HAARP and wondering what it might be doing,
it's gone the other way. What's happened is I have a series of observations and
deductions over two years, based on physical evidence and science, that lead me
to the existence of certain conditions in our environment and these conditions.
What is being found, these conditions are quite suitable for consideration of
the HAARP project and possible roles and applications that it is making.
Jeff: Which, apparently, it is capable of doing, and then some. The
applications of that program are extra-ordinary. That may not be the only HAARP
installation. They say they can set them up with several tractors and trailers
almost anywhere in a jungle or forest or the woods. Whatever. They're quite
portable.
Cliff: Exactly. I'm going to confess this is going to be a new field of
research for me. I started with the source, and that is the patent for this
project and that's what I'll discuss in more detail next time. Basically there
is a need for us to education ourselves because the evidence suggests that there
is something going on here that certainly is done without our consent. We
deserve some explanation for them. The researchers that are involved in this,
myself and [inaudible] have no intention of quitting until these answers are
forthcoming. I think the resolve is quite serious and getting more serious each
day across the nation. We supposedly live in a democracy. There are certain
inalienable rights that do belong to us and they are not to be denied. And,
that's the direction we're going.
Jeff: You know, the people who talk about the chemtrail issue as being
preposterous. The government is not going to spray us with anything. Oh, my, are
they ever uninformed. The history of the trail of dead and dying people in this
country and others from government biological and chemical experiments is
notorious for anybody who's done even a tiny bit of research in that field.
Cliff: Right and let it be said, I really had no intention of becoming
involved in this endeavor. It's just that
The criminality of it affected me so much. The fact that you have basic human
rights that are being violated here affected me. My father was in the navy for
30 years. I come from a pretty conservative background. Pretty quiet federal
employee. But, we have some things that are taking place here, which continuing
to be denied. Reasonable claims and calls for investigation have been made
repeatedly. We are to be taken seriously in our work. And, that process will not
end until it is taken seriously.
Jeff: And, I'm not suggesting that I have the answers here. I'm not
suggesting that they, whoever they are spraying us to kill us. I'm not
suggesting anything. I'm saying something is going on here. The history of
biological chemical testing on the American public is long and notorious. And if
anybody has any questions, the material is up on my web site and many others.
These things continue to come to light, going back to the Tuskeegee, the
outrageous Tuskeegee airmen experiment where black aviators were allowed to
suffer syphilis and watched for years to see how the disease progressed.
Here's another e-mail from Russell. "Last summer I was outside in the dark
while planes were leaving chemtrails overhead, nighttime spraying. I was rained
on by some half-inch long pieces of some silver metallic looking things about
the width of a human hair. They made a sound like sleet hitting on my deck and
completely disappeared. We had one sixty-watt light bulb on and they were
clearly visible in that light. So, another report of something strange coming
down from above.
Cliff: Yeah, that is an interesting report. We can't assume anything in terms
of what we find. We simply have to go after this with an open mind and collect
the evidence.
Jeff: The technique as we talked about earlier to identify and notice via
binoculars and I say, or by video.
Something to be careful. I think Clifford's warning
That sun can be very powerful, especially if you are looking at it with
binoculars. Stay well aware that that sun moves and it can creep across the
field of vision into the clear over that roofline. Might be best to use a video
camera and try to record it. You might be surprised what you might.
OK, Clifford, Sunday night we'll come back and take another look at this.
The web site continues to be hit hard by some of the most important agencies,
known and otherwise. Give me a little quick list of some of the biggies that
have been by recently.
Cliff: Boy. The Army War College is very interested in what is going on now
I was going to try to call up that list if I could.
Jeff: The basic point is this. Why are all… If this is nothing, friends. If
this is hallucination. If it's just another mass psychosis, or whatever you want
to call it If this is just a mass psychosis, why are all these agencies
monitoring, not only Clifford's site but mine, and other chemtrail sites as
well. What are they watching? What are they watching for? Are they looking for
how much we can learn on their behalf for them? Are we doing work for them?
Maybe they're in the dark as well. Or they trying to watch how much we are
learning?
Cliff: Raytheon has been an additional visitor who, by the way, apparently is
pretty involved in HAARP in terms of patent ownership and such. Peterson
Airforce Base in Colorado Springs, which is the home of NORAD and Spacecom. You
know, the list is quite extensive.
Jeff: It's a very long list.
You can hear the earlier visits with Clifford Carnicom on my archives. There
were two of them. This is number three. Thank you Cliff, we'll look forward to a
chat at that time.
Cliff: Yeah, thank you very much. I appreciate it, as always.
Jeff: Indeed. Take care. Clifford Carnicom! We're going to pause and be right
back with the amazing Joyce Riley. [1:50:55]
----------------------------------------------------------
Sunday, January 14, 2001 9PM Pacific Time, again in three parts
Sunday, Part I:
Jeff: And, welcome back, everybody. We're going to do something tonight that
will finish up what we started a couple of days ago. That will be part two of
our update with Clifford Carnicom on the coast to coast and worldwide chemtrail
controversy. Tonight many interesting areas to take a look at so listen up and
be informed. We'll get started in just a couple moments.
[00:25]
Jeff: If you were not with us last week, we did spend two remarkable hours
with Clifford Carnicom. That's "http://www.carnicom.com" in case you're new to
the program or new to the idea that there is somebody out there taking a real
serious look at chemtrails. In fact there are hundreds of people. Clifford has
distinguished himself uniquely because of his dedication, his expertise, his
application of his own intellect and learning. Science to support his research
endeavors have certainly proved out to be more than worthy and we have learned
great things by visiting his web site "http://www.carnicom.com". If you have no
doubt in your mind that something is not right up there and you've got friends
that are laughing at you. If they have an open mind or the door is even open an
inch; ask them to go with you sometime or on their own to www.carnicom.com
to look at the evidence. Just have them look at the evidence. Clifford, welcome
back.
Cliff: Thank you very much Jeff. Thanks for the invitation to return.
Jeff: Indeed. Let me tell our listeners just a little bit about you, in case
they were not here last time out.
Clifford has been self-employed. He is a professional computer consultant for
the past three years, and he now lives in Santa Fe, New Mexico, with his wife
Carol. He was previously scientist and federal employee for fifteen years with
three different agencies including the United States Department of Defense, the
Bureau of Land Management and the U. S. Forest Service. His technical background
is extensive, to say the least, in the fields of geodetic science, advanced
mathematics, computer science, and the physical sciences. All of those things
have come into play in his remarkable investigation into this most unnerving and
outraging phenomenon we call chemtrails.
Last time we covered some very important ground. If you can for me, Clifford,
just go back for me for a couple of minutes and talk about the particulate
matter, which I think is one of the keys to this thing, which is new and we want
to make sure everyone is up to speed.
Cliff: Thank you, Jeff. And it is important new information and evidence,
which has come in over the last two to three weeks. In a very short form,
basically, the evidence indicates that our atmosphere is now saturated, heavy
concentration, of, by the best evidence available it is certainly a charged
particle, most likely metallic. Barium salts are the best supposition that is
put forth thus far, based on a combination of methods of analysis. You have an
incredible concentration of particulate matter in the sky in direct connection
with the advent of aircraft aerosol operations that began on a very large scale
roughly two years ago.
Jeff: Very important point. The particulates began showing up, folks, at a
certain time.
Cliff: There's a direct connection with it even though there is information
indicates the program was practiced more localized in other regions several
years prior. Also, the extremely important finding is that this evidence can be
documented. It resulted originally from observations made to the message forum
that I maintain on my web site. Several reports were coming in. I did put forth
the effort to attempt to record that in a way that we can document and submit as
evidence. That measure was successful. It is very easily seen under the right
conditions, very specific lighting conditions that we discussed last time, and
can be recorded on film or "http://cecarnicom.www6.50megs.com/real.htm".
Jeff: And, you can, all of you, see those particulates on Clifford's web site
any time you'd like to. Take a look, you'll see, and again
"http://pub8.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=3853.topic"
used which is most common, is a video technique. Well, none the less it's the
use of a roof overhang looking up toward the sun but not into the sun, using the
roof as you would your hand to shield the sun from direct contact with your eye.
When you do that with a video camera, a still camera, or even binoculars, you
can see little tiny particulates, which were not there 3,4,5 years ago. Now, I
know that because 3,4, and 5 years ago people were using that technique to try
to capture unidentified flying objects in the air which they were successful in
doing on many occasions. And in every one of the hundreds, perhaps thousands of
images that I saw that were freeze frames from video, nowhere were particulates
visible in the skies. And those videos came from all over the United States,
Clifford.
Cliff: Right. And, it is fair to say here that the magnification being used
to record what I have done is quite high. It's roughly 40 power, although a pair
of binoculars at 7 to 10 power show it very easily.
Show it very easily, and even the naked eye can pick them up. It's the level
of concentration that is so astounding here, as well as the behavior of the
material having all of the characteristics of having being electrically charged
in nature.
Jeff: They're not dust, friends. That's floating around out there. They're
doing very specific things.
We're going to find out one way or another, sooner or later. Clifford's first
visit. Part I of this extensive update for you on chemtrails, last Wednesday,
the 10th of January, in the archives for you right now if you want to listen
after this program. This one will be archived as well. OK. Tonight, we're going
to move on to [an energy] absorption study.
Cliff: Yes. Jeff, There's three main topics that I wanted to cover. We didn't
have a chance to finish them and you'll have to watch me if I go too long. But
there's three main topics that I'd like to follow through, to give some sense of
completeness or at least, sort of a resting point in our status on information
on this.
The three topics are. Number one a few minutes devoted to a more technical
study, but it's important.
Technical information is important, here. We're dealing with a very
sophisticated program here and we do need the knowledge. A few minutes on
[energy] absorption characteristics of particulate matter and a small study I
did there. Secondly, and probably the most important of the evening along with
number three, would be the direct implications of
"http://server5550.itd.nrl.navy.mil/projects/haarp" within the aerosol programs.
Jeff: This would be interesting because, as you know there have been many
people that have gone a little bit overboard on the whole HAARP danger. They
have ascribed all sorts of evil and nefarious things to HAARP. But HAARP is a
player. We're going to try and nail that down somewhat tonight.
Cliff: And then one of my desires is to keep ourselves grounded in this.
There's no need to shift ourselves to something metaphysical. We're dealing with
something here that we can see and measure and we can apply scientific methods
to it. And there is a need to do that.
Jeff: Sure.
Cliff: And then, lastly, and certainly at the beginning, let me say, I'm not
a doctor, but let's say, I go where the research leads me to go. And I'm
certainly at a turning point now where there are some health issues here issues
that I need to bring up, even from a layman's point of view…
Jeff: And partially a speculative point of view, but none the less, the data
is becoming so strong in a circumstantial avenue that we've got to go down that
way.
Cliff: Right. So I'll spend a few minutes on the end of that. Primarily,
using some references that I have that show us some directions that we should be
should be going. So, when you're ready, I'll begin.
Jeff: Go ahead.
Cliff: The shortest of the three segments.
Jeff: Oh, and what I'm going to do, Clifford, as we come and go, from some of
the breaks
I've reproduced what's on your web site. And that is the list of people that
have visited your site over and over and over again. When I say people, there
are people doing the visiting, but they certainly come through an awful lot of
high level government intel, military and defense Those computers are being used
to monitor Clifford's web site. They watch it. They download it. They listen and
keep in mind another key point as to this whole government, sure people do
lounge at work occasionally and play on the Internet, but when you look at the
type of people who visit his web site, and you'll hear some of them during the
program tonight. Ask yourself: If there's nothing going on. If, as the
government says, there are no such things as chemtrails, why all the interest?
It's there. OK
Cliff: Yes, and that interest did begin within 48 hours of the introduction
of my web site on this topic…
Jeff: Yeah, they were right on it.
Cliff: …roughly two years ago.
We have an hour on your show, tonight. Is that right, Jeff?
Jeff: We've got two.
Cliff: Oh, OK. Well there will be no problem with time at all.
Jeff: No. No take your time. And if we have time, we have so many people who
would love to call and we may even do some of that tonight …whatever you
want.
Cliff: Then I won't rush.
Jeff: Don't rush. Take your time.
Cliff: OK. The topic is one of [energy] absorption. The reason for this is as
follows. If we have direct evidence that there is particulate matter in the
atmosphere, in abundance and it can be recorded, then it behooves us to learn a
little bit about the characteristics of absorption of energy with those
particles. It's helpful information because, if you know something is there,
then you have to start asking, well why?
Jeff: OK. Let's stop right on that now. If you know something is there you've
got to start asking why and we do know something is there. All right, here are
just a few as we roll on into the break, of the people who visit Clifford
Carnicom's web site www.carnicom.com   routinely, shall we say? The Desert Research
Institute in Nevada, which specializes in weather modification research. Repeat
visits. Fort Lewis, army military base from the state of Washington, home of
Special Forces Air Squadron operations. Lockheed Martin, that's of course the
big aviation space defense contractor. Repeated, repeated visits to monitor and
watch and maybe learn something from Clifford's site. Or maybe they're watching
to see how much he's finding out. We'll be right back.
[11:47 Commercial Break]
[15:04]
Jeff: I'm Jeff Rense and here are just a few more people, people and
institutions who visit Clifford Carnicom's web site at www.carnicom.com The Los
Alamos National Labs; repeat visits. Allergan Pharmaceutical Corporation. That's
allergy pharmaceutical research company doing a lot of work there.
Alliant Techsystems. Space and strategic defense systems contractor. Another
one.
Raytheon. I think everybody knows that name. Repeat visits over and over and
over again. A prime defense contractor, watching very carefully what goes on
carnicom.com?
OK. Cliff, we'll tick off a few names as we continue, but the list is long
and illustrious. Many of them taxpayer supported, which is even more amusing,
and when you consider the fact that it is illegal for government employees to
use government computers and technology to shall we say to loiter around,
supposed to be official business only.
Cliff: Thank you, Jeff, and actually, the list is actually a fraction of what
actually occurs because of my limited time to be able to monitor, but, very
representative and factual. To give the audience some lead time, for those that
are on the web and have access to it, if they wish to see the page that I'm
speaking of, there is a link on the left side of the page that is titled
"http://www.carnicom.com/absorp1.htm". Oh, about two inches down on the left
side of the blue column if people have found themselves to the main page.
This is a study that I worked on a couple of weeks ago and it stems from that
question of well, if you have good evidence that indicates that there is a
metallic particle in the atmosphere, why, why would it be there? And, why would
you do that? And it helps to begin, I think by learning what is the expected
behavior of that particle, with respect to energy? Certainly the sun is one of,
really the source of, all energy in our system, here as well as artificial
energy. It's the likely factor that you would first consider and so that is what
I have done, and it's a little scientific endeavor, but it's helpful. The
question posed is this: If you subject a metallic particle, especially a very
small metallic particle to electromagnetic energy, radiation, what is expected
in terms of how much of that energy does it absorb?
That's an important question. And, here is a couple of reasons that you would
want to ask that question. The first would be, and a lot of this is on my mind
when I'm just formulating the question, but if you had particles up there in the
sky, one of the first questions you would ask would be well wouldn't that
interfere with communications that we have? The ionosphere is really quite a bit
higher than the atmosphere, you now 60 to 100 miles up. That's a charged layer
that affects radio waves and those people that are hams, like I am in terms of
amateur radio…
Jeff: We get our bounce.
Cliff: Short wave listeners, they know the effects of reflection of radio
waves. They also know the disruptions that can occur to communications through
active solar activity to that layer. So, it's a question you can ask if you have
particles up there might we not expect some problems with radio communications.
Always try and confirm the observations from multiple points of view.
Jeff: Sure.
Cliff: And so, there's a chart on this page that I've referred to and what it
does is it shows the amount of energy absorbed by a microscopic particle of
barium. Since barium salt materials are most directly implicated in the work
that's been done thus far. The energy absorbed as a function of both
wave-length, meaning like radio waves, microwaves, visible light waves and
x-rays, a function of wave length versus particle size and the results are
somewhat interesting because the results show this, thus far. In terms of, ah,
you've got to take one of those variables at a time, but let's take with respect
to wavelength, first. Let's say you have a small particle of barium and actually
the results of most metals should be similar to this, what you find is that the
amount of energy absorbed by radio waves is essentially nil. Almost nothing
What that means is, if you send a radio wave through that, it will pass through
it, so it's not expected to be affected much by radio waves.
The microwaves are especially interesting because they appear to be a zone of
transition. In the microwave region, which also can be a part of communication
there is a noticeable, let's say a beginning to noticeable effect upon the
amount of energy absorbed. A portion of that energy is absorbed in the microwave
region.
When you get to the visible range and above, which x-rays are, let me outline
that sequence a quick outline of the electromagnetic spectrum. Radio would be at
the lower end of frequencies. Then you run into microwave, then you run into
visible light. Then you run into x-rays. So, what this study shows is that from
visible light upward through x-rays, essentially all of the energy is absorbed.
In the microwave region a portion of that energy is absorbed. And in radio, very
little to none is absorbed. OK?
Now, what that does is it helps you to understand why our radio
communications might not be disrupted, particularly, by this material. But it
also presents really a suggestion for further research. And believe me, there
are many, many topics and there is much help needed in the research that is
going on in the project. But it suggests the possibility of microwaves being
used as a detection device.
Jeff: OK. Right, all right. Makes sense to me. There is so much going on that
is almost beyond science as they say. The technology lead that is in practice
and what we know about is 10,15, depending on what you talk about 20,25 years or
more. There's some pretty eclectic material out there that our tax dollars have
built and created and deployed. On our behalf? Um, I don't know. Time may tell.
We'll be right back.
[22:21 Commercial Break]
[28:18]
Jeff: And, welcome back. I'm Jeff Rense with Clifford Carnicom, talking about
chemtrails, those ugly, really rather frightful, things that we have been seeing
in the skies of our country. And all of you overseas, many of you have seen them
as well, for the last couple of years. Clifford's web site is THE place to go.
www.carnicom.com and the visitors again are really most impressive. This is just a
small fraction of those who attend his web site. Come by to pick up the latest.

Boeing Aircraft Company, Boeing as in the big guys. 100 visits minimum. They
keep coming. Why are they going there? You gotta ask yourself that.
United States Defense Logistics Agency supplies and supports combat
troops.
Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Tuscon holiday 355th wing. Repeat, repeat,
repeat visits.
Davis-Monthan particularly interested in what Clifford is up to.
Department of Defense Naval Computer and Telecommunications Area Master
Station.
U.S. Naval Sea Systems Command and many more, which we'll touch on a few as
we continue. I have the same kind of profile at my web site, Clifford, as you
know. But what is focused on you is intense interest, and again, I'm wondering.
I asked you last time what you thought was, I'm not sure you can even answer but
just spec, guess. Are they watching to see how much you're learning? How much
you're discovering, how you're doing on the puzzle, or, are they watching to
see, maybe THEY don't know, in some cases. …Probably a little of both.
Cliff: Yes, that would be my reaction, Jeff. Probably it's both. The need
would be to monitor the information that surfaces and the need is also to
control information flow. So, I think, certainly the developers of this program,
they certainly are in the goods and know what is going on. The dissemination of
information is very important to keep a handle on in order to attempt to control
it.
Jeff: Information, next to nuclear, chemical and biological weapons,
Information is the most powerful weapon on the planet. It is let out and then
withdrawn as the need arises, to control and manipulate all of us. All right,
we're talking about absorption. The absorption study
Go ahead Cliff, and carry on.
Cliff: Thank you, Jeff. I will be the first to admit that I have an infinite
amount to learn in my life. But the work that I do is done in good faith. The
real question as stated before is: "Where are the professionals and where are
the official investigations?"
Jeff: May I just jump in and ask one quick question? You just opened a little
door here and I'd like to go in. I'm not just blowing smoke, here. Clifford's
work has been heroic. He is an individual. He is doing this at his own expense.
Has anybody from either a private agency or a public university or scientific
institution contacted you to discuss your work in any way, shape or form?
Cliff: Uh, negative. No formal investigation or inquiry has been made in any
way.
Jeff: Amazing. Not even to tell you you're wrong. Nothing. These people just.
…Hands off.
Cliff: Any official responses, which I am able to collect myself or through
the efforts of others are posted on the web site for people to review for
themselves.
Jeff: If nothing else, you work would be a genesis for someone to get a
masters degree in climatology or
…or even potentially a thesis in bizarre phenomena.
Cliff: Yeah. The research projects really are more amazing. Honestly I'm
learning all the time. You know, I've had a fair amount of schooling, but
there's no end to where you go. It's regular now that I'm picking up books on
quantum mechanics and physics. You know higher scientific fields basically to
get a handle on what we're dealing with, and the scope is just amazing.
Jeff: I salute you. It's an amazing undertaking you're involved with. And
you're doing it for all of us. Go ahead.
Cliff: The second part and other aspect of this study is to go the other
direction and instead of looking at energy absorption as a function of
wavelength, energy absorption as a function now, the question is particle size.
What happens if you make it bigger and make it smaller? How much energy does it
absorb? What happens here, is again at radio waves you see very little
influence, through the size ranges considered. Let me say now, that the size
ranges that are considered in this study range between two tenths of a micron
and ten microns. We give a file of size last time, being that a human hair is
roughly between 60 and 100 microns. A blood cell is roughly eight microns.
Asbestos fibers are two microns roughly, two to three microns.
Jeff: And viruses and so forth
Cliff: Yes, would be down at the sub-micron level.
Jeff: That's a very broad range.
Cliff: And this range was chosen because it appears to be most realistic of
size that was being considered. So that's the range that was chosen, two tenths
to ten microns. The results are rather interesting to me because what you see is
that at the radio level. Radio waves, again, little happens. There's no effect
down at the very small sizes and when you get up to ten microns there's just a
little bit of an effect. Microwaves are always interesting because, to me, I
would characterize them as a zone of transition. This is where things are
changing rapidly. What happens in microwaves is that the very small sizes, two
tenths of a micron to one micron, there is very little absorption of energy
When you say absorption that means most of it would be reflected. If there's low
absorption then most of it would be not absorbed, or reflected. There is a low
absorption of microwaves at the small sizes, two tenths to one micron.
Jeff: Seven percent.
Cliff: Yes.
Cliff: Then when you're, then when you get to the ten micron then it's
getting up to where almost all of it is absorbed. Then when you go into visible
and X-rays as I said earlier, really with respect to both variables, both
wavelength and size, essentially all of the energy is absorbed.
Now, the reason that the results of this study are of interest to me is
because I have mentioned several times that I have a very strong interest in
what the size of this material is, because it's very important for our ability
to measure it, detect it or filter it. This study, one small study, suggesting
that if this particle size were at the ten micron size or greater. Ten microns
or greater that it would disturb the microwave region, and that would say that
you would expect disturbances in communications and such. I have no evidence of
any disruption in communications and such involving microwaves, thus far.
Jeff: So, in sum, as we run into the break, here, the particulate that we see
in the air and the samples ought to be, potentially, messing up with microwave
communication, but they're not.
Cliff: And, the answer to that would be that the size of the particles is
most likely small. That is the conclusion.
Jeff: Gotta be. OK. Deductive reasoning, logic and fact. And we'll be right
back.
Stay with us. Chemtrails. We're looking at some of the microscopic aspects.
We'll be looking at larger venues and try to answer more questions. Be right
back.
[36:25 Commercial Break]
Sunday, January 14, 2001 9PM Pacific Time, again in three parts
Sunday, Part II:
[40:13]
Jeff: Welcome back. I'm Jeff Rense with Clifford Carnicom. A couple more
visitors to Clifford's site. Western Pacific Region of the Federal Aviation
Administration. Repeat, repeat, repeat visits. They're back all the time. Why?
What are they looking for? Who of the FAA is doing the looking?
The National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Our own NASA. Lots of
visits, there.
United States Environmental Protection Agency.
"http://www.carnicom.com/epa4.htm" to respond to Clifford Carnicom's letters
which you can see on his web site. His data, his evidence it's something that
may well be going on, which "http://www.epa.gov/history/org/origins/missionhtm"
regarding. We'll be right back to that list at the next break. It gets
better.
All right, Clifford, go right ahead. I'm looking again at the absorption
table. Your point is very well taken. For all of you who would like to see it go
to carnicom.com click on the chemtrail crimes block in the upper right. Look for
"http://www.carnicom.com/absorp1.htm" on the left-hand side, your menu on the
left margin, you'll see it.
Cliff: The value of this study is threefold, as I see it. Number one, it
gives us a feel for, an assessment of the energy absorbed by small particles,
both in terms of the type of energy that it's subjected to, as well as the size
of the particles. And, remember, when you try to explain the overall picture,
you need consistent data and interpretations across the board. If you have
discrepancies, you have to explain them. So that's the first thing it tells us.

The second thing that it is a value for, is that it helps or, let's say it's
in agreement with the behavior that I at least have observed thus far. Radio
communications do not appear to be disrupted in any significant sense. We would
all be calling attention to that I suspect if it were. It shows that the
microwaves are an expected region of transition, activity. Then, it shows that
visible and x-rays are, we have essentially complete absorption going on. All of
these levels are important. They all have their own role, and it helps to define
them, so that we better know what we're dealing with.
And then, the last thing of value from this work is that it suggests that the
size of the particle is likely to be extremely small. You know, I mentioned
earlier that in terms of light that roughly five microns or so is my best
estimate. Certainly it's a challenge for anybody to be splitting microns with
the tools and resources that we have available to us right now in this.
Certainly we have a zone or a region that's realistic, here. This result
indicates that the particles are extremely small, likely on the order of a
micron or so. So, so, I think that we shave a size range at least of
consideration from sub micron to no more than several microns. At least of
serous consideration as to a size estimate of the particles that we're dealing
with.
So, that's the value of the study. In this work, I'm exposed to new things
all the time. I just am learning as I go along. While I was doing this work,
really a fascinating piece of information came my way. There is this entity
called plasma frequency. When I first hear of these terms, maybe other people
have the same reaction. You don't know what it is so you sort of think you can't
under stand it or it's too difficult or something. But, I'll always keep
digging. Find out what this if somebody is talking about something.
A very interesting comment came out in a classical optical book that I was
reading. It was talking about the propagation of energy through metallic
particles. And it made this statement to the effect that above the plasma
frequency, metals become transparent. That statement really stood out, to me.

Jeff: It got me! Transparent?
Cliff: Because it was saying, if you have a metallic particle, metal in
general, the general statement was that if you subject metal to a high enough
energy, that they become transparent.
Jeff: Hmmm.
Cliff: That's a little bit mind blowing when you first hear it, but this is a
real thing, a quantitative entity. It's called the plasma frequency. You know,
you have different ways. You have quantum theory and you have classical theory.
This comes from classical theory and basically, they were proposing this and
then they were saying do the experiments agree with that? And they were saying
that they do. So this is I guess, this is rather tantalizing in terms of the
prospects because one is trying to, also explain, why aren't you seeing things?
OK. If you know it's there. We've seen now, it takes very unusual lighting
conditions, very specific, in order to be able to see and record what is going
on. No one is able to see any of this material under normal lighting conditions.
It at least suggests the prospect that visibility can be affected by the
frequencies of radiation or energy that this material is subjected to.
In combination with the previous discussion that we just had on absorption of
energy we are already showing or saying that this material is expected to absorb
essentially all of the energy in the visible and x-ray region. Now, the question
is what is this number? Again, numbers are important. What is this number called
the plasma frequency for a barium particle. I've worked this through. It's an
estimate. It's the best I can do. But, the best estimate I have right now is 200
nanometers. Now, where is that? What does it mean? It falls in the ultraviolet
portion of the spectrum. Visible light runs from 400 to 700 nanometers. It's a
portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, just like radio or microwave, or
anything else, very small but it's a portion. 200 nanometers, what's called the
plasma frequency, for this particular compound, metal, is at, within the
ultraviolet region.
The book on optics that I'm speaking of, what it said was that as you
increase the frequency above the plasma frequency, then it's going to tend
toward transparency. So, it suggests, the consideration that this metallic
material, these particles, are subjected to higher levels of radiation or
energy, which certainly are coming from the sun, at the very least, there are
ultraviolet rays and there are x-rays coming from the sun, that there may be a
transparency or other consideration in our observation. That's a very
interesting prospect. I can only suggest it as another field of research for us.
So, that being one of the more technical things, which I appreciate you allowing
the time to get through, these do sort of establish some foundations that we
need.
Jeff: It gives people a concept of the length and breadth of the data that is
underlying a lot of the more sensational aspects of it. That's just a portion of
it, friends. The work is being done. That's the issue. Have we been able to get
anybody to go up in a private jet and take a scoop of some of that garbage up
there before it filters down to us?
Cliff: Not at all. And the obvious question is where is the pilot that is
going to do it? Where are you? Where are the government officials that we pay
for? Why isn't it up there? But it hasn't happened, to my knowledge.
Jeff: I think there may be a mockery, but there may also be a fear factor.
People start thinking about this. If they really think about flying up into
these things they might think, I don't maybe there really is something to these,
maybe I shouldn't be up there.
Cliff: Well, you know, in retrospect, now we see that our atmosphere appears
to be full of whatever it is that is up there, so the sooner we learn the
better. However that's done. We're finding out eventually on our own accord.
So, that being the first topic of consideration tonight. The second one is
equally interesting to me. Also, somewhat of a new field of research of research
for me, I must say what's interesting to me the normal sequence here would often
be that someone would consider a candidate for a project or something like
that
Take HAARP, for example that's coming up, and then ask what's it doing? Or,
this is what it's probably doing. This is the phases of that project that we're
being exposed to. My work is exactly the opposite in terms of what's happened,
here. I have been led to HAARP, rather than starting with HAARP. My observations
and my work leads me with a set of facts, a body of evidence that leads me to
the consideration of HAARP as being strongly implicated within the program.
Jeff: Alright, now let's stop and take our break. That's a very key benchmark
position from which to start. Many people start and many people have written
books and papers and put up web sites about HAARP being the villain from which
blows all sorts of evil on the planet from weather control to mind control, you
name it. Clifford's work has taken, well it's an antithetical approach to it, as
it were. He's found his way to HAARP from his research. It all works and that
may be why some of these defense contractors and others are so keenly interested
in what's going on with carnicom.com
Among them the Western Pacific Region of the FAA, as I said.
NASA, the U.S EPA
St. Vincent's Hospital in Santa Fe, New Mexico, not too far from Clifford's
home.
Headquarters, United States Airforce, the Pentagon.
United States Department of Treasury. Repeat, repeat, repeat visits from
them. Figure that one out. We'll be back.
[51:17 Commercial Break]
[1:00:38]
Jeff: And welcome back. We're glad you're with us. Clifford Carnicom, our
guest tonight. We're talking about some of the mechanics and I mean the very
small issues. The science. The bedrock discoveries. The information, the data,
that Clifford has collected so far. From a technical aspect that has really
underwritten this whole chemtrail reality, to a degree that, we would not be
there today if it were not for Clifford's work.
He is, of course, an independent scientist living in New Mexico. Doing some
extraordinary research and we're talking about chemtrails. We're going into more
areas this hour. Maybe we'll even do some calls later on tonight, if Clifford
has time. I know you're all interested in that. A couple more visitors to
Clifford's web site, if you're new to the program or new to the net, it's
carnicom.com. If you've heard about chemtrails and don't know what they are or
even if you've heard about them and think you do know, go to carnicom.com
Take your friends there, too, if they have any doubt when they look up and
they say, "Oh, I don't see anything."
Take them and show them just a few pictures. Show them the pictures of the
mega-sprayers up there. Ask them what that's all about.
Headquarters of the United States Air Force, the Pentagon.
United States Department of Treasury, one of Clifford's frequent guests.
Think about that.
United States Department of Defense Educational Activity.
Andrews Airforce Base, proud home, of course of Airforce One.
U. S. FAA as I said earlier. They come often.
United States Naval Research Center. I wonder what that's all about.
Rockwell-Collins, another defense contractor.
Honeywell, one of the big guys on the block.
Wright Patterson. Repeat, repeat, repeat visits.
All right, Clifford. Go ahead.
Cliff: Thank You Jeff. To prepare the audience again for the web page, if
they would like it. This next segment that I'll speak of concerns radiation
implications and HAARP implications, and on the front page there is a
conspicuous link that is entitled "http://www.carnicom.com/xray1.htm". People
can hopefully find that page for those that have access to the web now, if they
wish to refer along with my speaking.
Jeff: Alright.
Cliff: I guess, it is important to state again that I have not had, nor do I
have now any particular predisposition to the consideration of the HAARP project
as being a strong candidate for what is happening. But, the data and the
evidence leads me there, and that's what I'm following. The starting point for
this would be going back to this word called plasma. The word plasma to the
layman probably has somewhat of a Star Trek connotation.
Jeff: It does. Yes.
Cliff: It certainly did, to me, but it's helpful to get these definitions out
there. What I've learned is plasma is not so esoteric. Plasma is a term that
will start showing up over and over and over. So maybe we should start doing
research on this. Plasma is nothing more than an ionized gas, a charged gas
It's not ethereal. It is a gas, for example the atmosphere or a contained gas,
even, in which the gas is ionized, meaning it is charged. So, that's a starting
point in terms of realizing what a plasma, what's called a plasma is. It's that
plasma frequency. You're talking about a frequency that's related to a charged
or ionized gas.
Jeff: Let me make a quick example, here. Many of you have been in the
laboratory, perhaps in the past and seen, there will be a tube, a glass tube,
and in that tube first it will be evacuated. Then it will be filled with what
they call noble gasses. And then, they'll run an electrical current through it
and those noble gasses will go into a plasma state. They'll take on a beautiful
lavender purple and they'll glow. That's a plasma gas. A gas in a plasma
state.
Cliff: And the reason that this now important to understand and thank you for
the additional information and the reason it is important now to consider is
because the evidence indicates that we have an abundance or a saturation of some
sort of charged particles in the atmosphere. So, in a sense, extrapolation can
lead to consideration of our atmosphere as now a plasma.
Jeff: Charging it up. Just like in the lab in a glass tube, or a chamber. And
when you see the glowing gasses. That's what Clifford is going towards,
here.
Cliff: And this is the direction. The reason that I'm being drawn to consider
HAARP seriously in this study. The propagation of electromagnetic waves in what
is called plasma is a very serious classical physics topic. It goes back to the
40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. This has been around for a while. The
consideration of the propagation of electromagnetic waves through what is called
a plasma. So, this is what has brought me to HAARP because if you now say OK
you've got something here, it appears to be charged. What are you doing and why
are you doing it? And if you look at the scale of the project, as what is going
on again a logical candidate now becomes the HAARP project.
Jeff: You bet. Pumping up incredible amounts of energy into the ionosphere
which then turns it back down toward the earth, if I am correct in my
assumption, here, about how it works. What goes up comes down, and as it comes
down it passes through quadrizillions of charged particles. And then what
happens?
Cliff: I suspect that you may have had several guests on your show that may
be quite knowledgeable in HAARP and in the end, maybe the better person to carry
on the discussion. But the points that I will want to make tonight, basically
establish a serious link between the evidence and information and research that
I have conducted and acquired over the last two years and the applications of
the HAARP project. And, I'm more than willing to admit my ignorance, but I also
know that I am willing to learn and find out. And, what I have done thus far,
and that is what I would like to talk about at this point is, I have started
with the source. I have located the original patent for the HAARP project,
submitted by Bernard Eastlund, in 1987, where the original thesis of the project
was described.
What I'd like to do is go through this patent and pick really the points of
application. I'm not after explaining the technical details of the project
because that's another separate discussion. The question is one of application.
If we have this material in the sky, you know why are you doing it? I have
specifically refrained from being speculative in my nature in terms of what are
they doing because, unless you have a basis for it, it doesn't make sense. And
what I'm speaking of tonight is not speculation. This is a thesis of a patent
for a project, which is well established within the defense agency, presumably
for research purposes alone. But when we go through these and you learn some of
the applications, certainly it becomes evident that it isn't anything
speculative at all, especially when we have evidence that indicates such
physical material, such charged mater, such plasma, does exist. So, the
beginning of this, the first part that caught my eye in the patent, is probably
15-20 pages, and I'm going to just take a few excerpts as we go along, if that's
alright with you.
Jeff: Sure, you bet, fine.
The very first one that caught my attention was that in Eastlund's patent it
stated that "http://www.carnicom.com/east1.htm". It says that it has also been
proposed to release large clouds of barium in magnetosphere, they're talking
about the magnetosphere instead of the atmosphere. So that photo-ionization will
increase the plasma density. Basically, and by the way, this patent covers the
full range from the atmosphere to the magnetosphere, which is way above in
altitude. So, he is considering the full range of gas or atmosphere above us,
including the ionosphere or magnetosphere.
Jeff: OK. Heading to a break. Let me ask you to pause right there.
Again, just to recap. HAARP is known generally in the PR data, pumping up
large amounts of energy to charge up the ionosphere, for a variety of reasons.
Of course that energy has to come down somewhere and as it comes down, it may be
passing through a massive increase in barium particulates. And barium in the
atmosphere which Eastlund mentioned, as you just heard, in the very beginning of
his patent statement as to how HAARP might function. Barium identified by
HAARP's inventor as a key component in the HAARP operational paradigm. Very
interesting.
We'll be right back with Clifford Carnicom, in just a minute.
[01:11:15 Commercial Break]
[until 01:16:00 Interference from a baseball game]
Cliff: …charged particles in that rainfall. The
"http://www.carnicom.com/spectra1.htm" work which indicates an unexpected match
and presence of barium with identification of spectral lines, through the use of
a spectrometer as well as direct observation. So the observations and the
physical evidence indicate the presence of this material. I had no particular
surmising necessarily that this would be here. The evidence is showing it. I
have other reports of reports of a naturopathic doctor, which I'll talk about a
little bit more later that are finding barium in hair analysis that is being
done. It is coming from "http://www.carnicom.com/case1.htm". But that's where
the information leads me to.
In addition to the patent I just referred to where Eastlund, himself
mentioned the introduction of this material, in the book which I'm sure many
people have heard of called
"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964881209/qid%3D979807324/107-3703359-6758127"
in the time line, in 1961it stated, scientists propose artificial cloud
experiments. In 1960 the dumping of chemicals, in parentheses, barium powder,
etc. from satellites and rockets began. So, you're starting to see this pattern
of really for 30-40 years, people have been proposing of this particular
chemical compound into the atmosphere for a specific purpose, namely ionization
or charging the atmosphere for desired military effect, in particular. In
addition, on this patent, there is a specific reference to particulate matter,
artificial particulate matter being introduced. The statement is this effect can
be further enhanced by providing artificial particles, electrons, ions, etc
directly into the region to be affected from a rocket, satellite or the like to
supplement the articles in the naturally occurring plasma. And we won't let
plasma throw us anymore, in terms of what it means. So here, we have a
foundation of the introduction specifically of barium and particulate matter to
accomplish the objectives and goals of this project.
Jeff: It's right there
Cliff: It's an important finding. Now, in the interest of time what I was
going to do was take you directly from the patent and translate it. But I think
I'll skip the part where I take it directly from the patent because of our time,
and basically, read the series of applications that I see coming from the HAARP
patent. These are not speculative at all. These are taken directly from the
patent where Mr. Eastlund lists sequentially, the applications of this
project.
Jeff: And there are probably a lot more that aren't listed but go ahead.
Cliff: That's right. Here are sixteen of them. Just listen to them. These are
all stated very clearly in the patent. There is no ambiguity about what he is
speaking of. So, what he's saying is, that if you do put material in the
atmosphere or above, which can be subjected to electromagnetic and frequency
that you can create the following applications or desired effects. Here, they
start.
The first one has to do with satellites. The first one would be to modify or
disrupt the microwave transmissions of satellites. The second one would be to
cause interference with or even total disruption of communications over a very
large portion of the earth. The third one would be, employed as an early warning
device. Number four would be, this can cause confusion and/or interference with
or even complete disruption of guidance systems employed by even the most
sophisticated of airplanes and missiles.
Jeff: That's easy to see how that might work in the Star Wars scenario. They
switch on HAARP and a lot of the missiles or guidance systems that are aloft all
of a sudden have trouble.
Cliff: Right, and I'm losing my numbers, here.
This invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of power in
the earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain the power
injection level. Let's say how to say this, and better control than here-to-fore
accomplished by the prior art particularly by the detonation of nuclear devices
at various yields, at various altitudes. What he's saying there is that you have
basically enough power that you can localize to accomplish the same result as a
nuclear detonation
Jeff: Yep
Cliff: Without HAVING a nuclear detonation.
Jeff: That's an incredible thing to even contemplate in and of itself let
alone all of the fifteen other items that are mentioned in the patent and
remember those are just the ones that are mentioned there. Clifford Carnicom is
my guest. We're talking about HAARP and Clifford's reading of the patent. And
his adding one and one here and getting two. There may very well some very
strong linkage between the particulates and the barium and how HAARP operates.
Be right back with more.
[01:22:10 Commercial Break]
Clifford Carnicom Interview on "http://www.sightings.com" with Jeff Rense
Sunday, January 14, 2001 9PM Pacific Time, again in three parts.
"http://broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/01archives.html", or...
Sunday, Part III:
[01:28:03]
Jeff: And, welcome back. I'm Jeff Rense here with Clifford Carnicom, hearing
all sorts of fascinating, extraordinary material. We have in the past, Cliff,
gone over this HAARP thing, years ago, with
"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books field-author=Begich%2C%20Nick/107-3703359-6758127",
primarily, of course who has done such great work studying that machine.
Sixteen key issues spelled out clearly in the patent. The ability to create
a, what amounts to, a nuclear detonation without the plutonium the uranium
anywhere on the planet or most anywhere by using this technology, more than
enough to catch the interest of every defense mind and military mind on the
planet. The idea of charging up the atmosphere with barium in little
particulates, charged particulates to maybe make HAARP function even better is
something that is also understandable from a military stand point. Never mind a
lot of people get sick, and maybe some die. But that makes sense, too, does it
not?
Cliff: Absolutely. And, one of the reasons for this discussion is to
establish a logical and a plausible link between the research which has been
conducted over two years and this important project which has a history,
actually, in terms of the theory of it which goes back all to the fifties and
such, and which has been specifically implemented in more recent times. And I
think that is one of the main, one of the main questions that arises out of this
is what is the level of implementation that exists now.
Jeff: Precisely they found without a doubt going in and without doubt from
Tesla's work
Thee ionosphere would take a charge and could be made to do some interesting
things. Maybe they found out, Clifford, that they could sort of extend that
ionosphere and it's reaction profile to a much lower level and make a much
bigger canvas upon which to play their games, by pumping the lower atmosphere up
with
Cliff: Absolutely. I think that that is a logical conclusion and deduction
that can be made. It is also of interest in other papers that I have read by
Eastlund, some time ago. He makes specific reference to really the concern he
expresses about the awareness of the populace with respect to HAARP.
Jeff: How so? How so? What kind of concern?
Cliff: He basically, when this book was written, in the, in Eastlund's paper
the book by, if you pronounce his name Begich, is that correct?
Jeff: [says] beggish
Cliff: His book is mentioned in his papers as evidence of the fact that if
the public becomes aware of the operational let's say objectives…
Jeff: and capabilities
Cliff: …and capabilities of HAARP, that it is likely to cause difficulties,
let's say, in terms of public relations.
Jeff: So he was concerned about that. He wasn't happy about that
Cliff: He was bringing it to their attention.
Jeff: This may be the ultimate military weapon on the planet, right now. If
they can zero in on a certain city, a certain target and vaporize it, as it
were. No need to send cruise missiles. They can just do it with a flick of a
switch by charging up the ionosphere and maybe all the [inaudible] below that,
as it were
What a weapon, and remember as I said in the first program, last Wednesday.
We have talked in the past years about HAARP and the fact that it's a mobile
system. They can truck it around with a bunch of semis and set it up in a jungle
somewhere. Nobody will know it is there.
Cliff: Right. And, another reasons for bring up this discussion that we're
having right now is that to me it shows that it is very premature for folks to
try come up with a single agenda a single program of the aerosol projects that
we are a party to and subject of.
Jeff: Could be a multi-faceted issue. Many experiments going on. HAARP just
one of them. We don't know.
Cliff: Right. By last call that I have, it is the people of the country that
pay the taxes and support all government agencies.
Jeff: You're hopelessly old fashioned, Cliff.
Cliff: Which I worked for for quite a while myself, considered myself a
public servant at times.
Jeff: 15 years
Cliff: The citizens of this country have a right of participation in that
process of determination of national policy and agendas of the military as
well.
Jeff: That's what the constitution says, and that's what they tell us, but in
reality it would seem that some of that participatory strength we used to have
has eroded, but go right ahead.
Cliff: I don't want people to become solely absorbed in the technical
aspects, and I don't want people to be led to believe that that is my only focus
because the larger picture here has always been one of informed consent. That
remains behind this entire endeavor for the last two years to have the country
become involved and the citizens to take part in their country and their
government.
Jeff: Very well said and we concur 100%.
Cliff: Other applications of this fairly briefly, but still just as
important, just to realize the scope of a potential project and specific
applications, very realizable applications of this program include establishing
a communication system. The other one we talked disrupted a communication
system. There's an application of creating a communication system while you're
disrupting another one. In other words there's both a positive and a negative
aspect at the same time.
Another is for eaves dropping, basically spying. Once you get hold of
communications in whatever form then it gives you the ability to intercept
communications, also. Another one is, and this is maybe more of a repeat,
missile aircraft destruction, deflection or confusion, not exactly the same
thing. Another one, weather modification is possible by altering upper
atmosphere wind pattern. For all of these times where people keep suggesting
these theories, "Oh, I think they're doing such and such" there is no reason to
limit oneself to a single application. None of these are mutually exclusive to
one another at all.
Another topic was, and especially interesting right now is the introduction
of particulate matter for the specific purpose of distributing something or to
deliver something.
Jeff: OK. Let's think about that. Ponder that. Eastlund,
Bernard Eastlund told Omni Magazine once, with HAARP you could lift part of
the upper atmosphere. You can make it move. You can do things to it. Obviously
you can do things with it. Be right back.
[01:35:29 Commercial Break]
[01:39:02]
Jeff: OK. Back with Clifford Carnicom, and the evidence continues to point
very clearly, very succinctly to some real interesting potentials, here. Berhard
Eastlund also said that part of the upper atmosphere might also generate high
altitude drag that could heat and deflect enemy missiles or surround them with
high-energy electrons that might cause the missiles to detonate in
mid-trajectory. This is very interesting. Go ahead Clifford.
Cliff: That's right, Jeff. And, in the interest of time, out of the four
applications that are remaining, I'm only going to mention one more.
Jeff: If you are able, we can extend past the next hour, or do it another
show. Whatever you'd like to do. If you want to go right on through it tonight
we've got another 40 minutes, the next hour we can fill.
Cliff: I think I can finish it, because along with this last one that I'll
mention
The lesson now is this, it that it is now our duty, all of us, to learn about
HAARP, as much as we possibly can. The starting point is
"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964881209/qid%3D979807324/107-3703359-6758127"
and to learn about this project in detail so that we are in a better position to
present our claims and request for investigation when that time comes, as it
shall.
Jeff: So, you want to just wrap it up this hour?
Cliff: Yes. I think we can.
Jeff: We've got about eight minutes to do it, so go ahead.
Cliff: What I want to do is mention just one more of the four applications,
because it's very interesting to me. Here is the line. Small micron sized
particles can then be transported. Particles with desired characteristics can be
transported for desired characteristics or effects. That's an interesting
because it says that you can deliver material. We have already seen some
evidence, which indicates the likely distribution of material, some of it, which
does not appear to be to our benefit. A kind way of saying that unidentified
"http://www.carnicom.com/bio1.htm" have been identified in materials, thus far.
Specifically how they're being sent is still a question. It certainly, again,
raises the proposition of delivery of material for specific purposes.
The last segment I wanted to go over with and really, these are to open
doors. Directions that we at least need to go in our research. One of them was
certainly the last discussion that we had on HAARP. Another is now health, and I
have avoided really too much time involved in researching health because I
didn't really know what we're dealing with. I think we have some information now
that shows us likely what we're dealing with. We appear to have a saturation of
microscopic metallic particles in our atmosphere. That has tremendous
ramifications both in terms of a society and what we have allowed to occur over
our heads without opposition.
Jeff: Very quickly, Clifford. The delivery and spreading of particulates, and
material up there could be done through commercial jet traffic, unbeknownst to
the aviation people involved, the airline captains, the crews. They wouldn't
know.
Cliff: It's very conceivable. My research indicates the real likely
possibility of a combustive process being involved, which certainly does not
eliminate you know, commercial traffic as well as the photography that I have
done. So, one of the points with this, I'd like to come up with a couple of
references that I have, if we have time.
One of the main points here is really sort of a dilemma a paradox that I have
been trying to understand. Because if we imagine ourselves you know 20-30 years
ago in this country and you were to have the type of environmental degradation
that we have all been subjected to and have witnessed over the last two years,
and to have nothing come out of that society in a unified sense in terms of
unified opposition is really rather disgraceful and disappointing. It's very sad
to think that with the both the visual as well as now what apparently is
physical damage to our environment, that at the very least a form of organized
opposition from the environmental organizations in this country would not have
been forthcoming. And, we've missed something there. That's sad to me because
it's very hard for me to imagine that being the case 20-30 years ago, when
supposedly this country was steeped in a mood of environmental awareness with
the desire to preserve and really ensure the health of our planet.
And so, what I've been trying to figure out is, at what level are people
motivated? What is it that causes them t be motivated? Because, we have
certainly missed the boat so far with the environmental effects upon us. It
appears to me that health issue may be the triggering mechanism, now. I don't
know whether we just, we go through certain periods in our evolution as a
society, where the impetus comes from. If you missed the boat on protecting our
environment, then maybe it means something when your health is almost certainly
being affected in a direct way. And that the evidence indicates the presence of
basically heavy metals, in our atmosphere, at a saturation level, that few of us
could even comprehend, once we see it.
So, there's therefore now a need for all of us to educate ourselves very
rapidly on the potential health effects of these materials in the atmosphere.
That's what I have been doing. We probably only have a couple of minutes but I'm
going to mention just a couple of references with, again, the purpose being,
that we, as a society need to become involved and motivated to seek the truth
and to seek disclosure and to seek accountability for those actions, which are
perpetrated without our consent.
Jeff: Which is an awful lot of our entire defense posture, national security
and all the rest of it used to now hide incredible amounts of data, incredible
amounts of money and weapon systems and technology and all the rest of it.
Cliff: My contention is, and always will be that the government works for the
people. The people do not work for the government. Here's a statement from a
book, a health book called
"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1583330771/o/qid=979811897/sr=8-
1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/107-9361493-9790143",
which probably quite a few people out there probably do know, written in 1997,
before this issue even came up on any kind of national scene at all. Here is the
statement: "If you suffer from chronic flu-like symptoms, the culprit may not be
a virus. You may be reacting to some material or item in your home or work
place. Exposure to environmental toxins has been linked to immune deficiency and
cancer."
Point number one: We're been talking about flu-like symptoms for a couple of
years with no adequate explanation, certainly on a medical basis. Here is a
person telling you three years ago that there just might be something in the
environment, which is causing you to have reactions, and symptoms, which appear
very much, like the so-called flu.
Next one: "Toxic metals can enter the body and decrease the functioning
capacity of its organ. This is chemical poison. Some chemicals are absorbed
through the skin. Others may be inhaled or digested, ingested. The body's immune
system is threatened by these chemicals and tries to cleanse itself of the
poison. Damage to internal organs, especially the liver, can occur."
So, what's happening, here, if you start to learn about the influence of
heavy metals on our system, it is extremely distressing to say the least. The
word cancer has to come into your vocabulary. The words free radicals have to
come into your vocabulary. Anti-oxidants have to come into your vocabulary.
These are things that I have not spent a great deal of time with, but I'm
learning very quickly because everything says that your health will be affected
in exactly the ways that are being reported. It fits. The data fits. What you
are seeing. What you are feeling. It fits with what has been observed. So, there
is a need, at the very least, if we don not care about our environment, then
maybe it's time to at least care about our health and our wellbeing realizing in
the end that these are all connected. So, I think that is one of the main points
that I want to make. Is to ask the audience: At what level do you care? When do
you care?
Jeff: When somebody in your family dies from one of these upper-respiratory
issues that goes into pneumonia? When you become disabled? When you come down
with cancer. One out of two people are getting cancer now. How far do we go with
national defense? To the extent of destroying our own population? Where do you
draw the line? How much should we know? Do we need to know all of it?
Do we need to know part of it? Many questions, Clifford, life and death
questions, tragically, for more and more people. Anything in your research
pointing to mold and fungal infections as being part of this?
Cliff: Not that I have directly, because, unfortunately when you're dealing
with that size, I really don't have the lab resources to be handling this stuff.
That's really the only answer to the question. Like I say, I don't say anything
unless I can document myself. I don't have it because it's not necessarily
there; I just don't have the lab resources to answer all of the questions that
have now been raised.
Jeff: Right. The more we know, the more questions. What can people do
individually when they see these things criss-crossing over their heads? When
they watch planes go back and forth? When they watch right angle, practically
right angle turns and the spray continues. Not right angle but close, what do
they do? What are they supposed to tell their family and friends who realize
something is not right? Do they stay indoors? Do they buy air purifiers? We have
just about one minute left. What would you suggest?
Cliff: My simplest answer is to get involved, first of all. You have to
become involved. It's our planet. It's our species. That's the largest question
to me to answer, is to become involved and realize that it is us as a planet and
a species that we are speaking of. Action will occur both at a grass roots level
and formally but it is occurring and it will continue to occur, until we get the
answers that we deserve.
Jeff: Clifford, thank you on behalf of an awful lot of people for spending
your time, your energy, your life
Desperately need. Thank you very much Clifford.
Cliff: You're very welcome. And, I say I appreciate all of the time that you
have given to discussion of this. You have done a great job yourself. I
appreciate the opportunity all the time.
Jeff: You bet. We'll talk soon.
Stay well and take care.
Cliff: Thank you, Jeff.
Jeff: OK. Clifford Carnicom. Back in just a few minutes.
[01:51:17]
Posted for educational and research purposes.
-- Kim Weber
--- ohwarriorgoddess@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.