De-Tax Interview

SEPT. 14, 2000 CTS-TV
Detax Interview

WHY YOU DON'T LEGALLY HAVE TO PAY INCOME TAX
MICHAEL COREN (CTS): Hello, good evening, and... guess what? Welcome to Michael Coren Live, on CTS.

In a moment... these two guys have been on the show before. They claim not to pay any income tax at all, and they... well, we'll see what they have to say. I don't agree with them, but that's not the issue. I mean, free speech and debate are all important.
Do you like paying income tax? Well, no, you'd have to be absurd, quixotic beyond belief, to like paying income tax. Oddly enough, I got a letter today that said, you owe us $20,000, and virtually said if you don't pay, we start to take your property away. And my wife... I went out to get something, and my wife read this, and said, Mike, have you seen this letter? I thought Bernie, we get those every year... you know, because I'm always late in paying. It's okay. You call up a very nice person on the other end, you laugh with them, and you say, do I really have to pay? And they say, I'm afraid you do. And you write
cheques in instalments, and I see that as part of a social contract. I believe in redistribution of wealth, in a civilized degree and
manner, and I pay that tax because I believe I owe that to the state, so that my fellow brothers and sisters in this country can be helped that, that are not as fortunate as I am. I have no problem with it at all. I'd maybe like to pay less, but that's not such a major issue for me.

These two gentlemen have radically different views: Byron Fox, the Ontario Detax Group, Bruce Stellar, the Ontario Detax Group. Was it Ontario... you were on before. Was it the Ontario Detax Group then?
BYRON FOX (Ontario Detax Group): These are local supporters that brought us out.
COREN: Oh, I see, because you're from B.C.?
FOX: Yes, yes, born and bred.
COREN: And these aren't your real names, are they?
FOX: No, they're not. No. These are corporations' soles, similar to the Governor General and Lieutenant-Governors. If you'd like to know my real name, it's Ken McMorty. It's no secret.
COREN: Are you ashamed of being an Irishman or something?
FOX: I'm adopted! I'm not sure what I am! LAUGHTER)
COREN: Now, some people saw you when you were on before, but it was quite a long time ago. You don't pay any income tax at all?
FOX: Oh, I haven't for an awful long time. Now, I have two court cases, I'm facing two failure to file charges. We've been into court. It's naive of us to ever expect not to be confronted by the system here. But in our past two and a half years, we've probably talked to 25, maybe 30,000 people across Canada, and what we've done is showed(sic) them about how to make themselves a harder target, just so they're not so vulnerable, because you are probably in a position where you can pay that $20,000 over time.
COREN: Over time.
FOX: Yeah, and it's not much fun, but you do it. There is(sic) people in this country that have taken their own lives over these issues. There's people that have very, very difficult circumstances, and Revenue Canada's shown nothing but antifreeze in their veins over these issues. So if you... it's not just Revenue Canada. If you wanted to protect things from litigation -- and perhaps a divorce, if a divorce happens, they're very nasty -- there's ways of putting what you have into a hard-target area, putting it aside, and that's good practice, whether you decide to pay or not. It's still prudent.
COREN: But tell me, you're not... now, there are extreme ends where people are treated badly. That's not the issue here. And nor is this some boring show about how to pay less tax. People do that all the time. They bore me so that I have no interest in that. You two don't believe in paying any tax.
BRUCE STELLAR (Ontario Detax Group): Well, that's not entirely so.
COREN: Really?
STELLAR: Well, certainly. I mean, I just... I was out this morning, I had breakfast and paid the taxes. I pay my share of taxes.
COREN: I'm talking about direct taxation.
STELLAR: Certainly.
COREN: You don't pay any income tax.
STELLAR: I haven't filed an income tax return since 1989, and I'm still free, I'm walking the streets, I've not... I don't have harassments, I don't have brown envelopes coming to my house every day. All the status quo, fear-mongering concepts don't happen for me, and there's a reason for that. And the reason is that I'm educated, I have knowledge, and I deal with Revenue Canada in such a matter. I'll inform them of certain things that I'm aware of that have... ward their backing off. I was in court November the 11th, defending my wife. They wanted to get through(sic) me to my wife. After the end of the day, they had to call for a mistrial. We just brought so much evidence to the table that scared them... literally, scared them off.
COREN: How much time do you spend in court?
STELLAR: That's the first time in my life.
COREN: Really?
STELLAR: And it wasn't even for myself. It was for my wife.
COREN: But I file every year, and pay late usually... no, always pay
late. If I didn't file, that they might not know for a while...
STELLAR: Certainly.
COREN:... But eventually they would find out, and then they would come to me and say, well you probably... you know, you owe a hundred, 200,000 dollars in back-taxes, and then my life falls apart.
STELLAR: Well, and this is the thing. You've got to understand too, that it's not just a political statue that I don't believe in paying income tax. I go right to the originals, to the root of the law. If it states I must pay, then I will. Show me the law that states I must pay my tax, in the truth, in the fact, and I'll do so. They haven't been able to provide me with that. I'm looking for the obligation as written. Let me see the written obligation. If there's no written obligation, then why should I, other than a moral and ethical consciousness coming into the picture?
COREN: Well you roll your eyes there, but moral and ethical consciousness is extremely profound. The fact is, people need help.
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
STELLAR: But I can assure you that that's not the reason why you're going to cut that 20,000 dollar cheque. It's going to be because that brown envelope is coming down, and you're negotiating with them, and you'll work the best deal you can, and if...
COREN: You know what? You've got me wrong, and I'm hardly a saint. In fact, I'm rather a sinner, but I don't work any deals with them. I think I owe the money, and I pay the money. But there are many people out there, include(sic) myself, who... we use things that are paid for by tax dollars. We have an obligation to give our fair share.
STELLAR: What is the fair share?
COREN: Well, you could say it's arbitrary, but I think that with elected government, which is democratically elected, has a certain right, with a little opposition, to say this is what the tax level will be.
STELLAR: Get to the nitty-gritty, and maybe not speaking for yourself, but perhaps for your audience, I certainly would suggest that... I look for the law. If the law states I must pay, I will. If it does not, I will not. It is... that is.. it's as cold and cut just like that. You show me the law that imposes the obligation upon me, and I will file. I make offers to Revenue Canada. I teach people and they won't do it. The bottom line is, I'm looking for the law, the law is fact. I don't deal in opinion and presumption.
COREN: You know, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not an accountant... but, you're telling me there's nowhere in the law, in any law in this country, that says income tax is legal?
STELLAR: That is correct. You see, let me ask you a simple question about law, even contracts. I'm looking for the law that states in fact that I must file. Is that unreasonable? Let's take moral and ethics out of it. Look for the law that states I have to do it. When I say in the fact, I mean that specifically, in the fact. Fact is a noun. Get into the simple... the stuff at school we ran from. Remember, if you want to enunciate a noun on a contract, you want to enunciate substance... see this table? (KNOCKS) That's substance. That's a noun. The only way to express substance on a contract...
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
COREN: That's a table...
STELLAR: Ah, but it's expressed on paper as a noun. Correct?
COREN: What are you talking about?
STELLAR: Well, how would you like... Let me ask you this, if you were in court, is it a court of fact or a court of opinion?
COREN: It's a court of law.
STELLAR: Court of law based upon...? Opinion or fact?
COREN: Collective experience, precedent, constitutions, election, many things.
STELLAR: Fact. Nobody goes to jail on opinion. You certainly wouldn't want to pay a fine on an opinion now, would you?
COREN: I don't want to get into the philosophy of this, but I disagree with you. And thou shalt not kill is not a fact, it's an opinion... an opinion... an opinion... which is based on a thing which is very precious, but it's an opinion, it's not a fact.
STELLAR: Pardon?
COREN: It's not a fact.
STELLAR: It's not a fact that you should not kill.
COREN: No, it's an opinion. It's an opinion I hold to, and most other people do as well, but it's not a fact. It's not something which, you know, can never be challenged.
STELLAR: And if it's enunciated in law, is it a fact or is it opinion, once written?
COREN: Why won't you pay income tax?
STELLAR: Because the law doesn't exist in the fact that states I have to.
COREN: Don't believe a word of it. 416-203-0302, 905-332-3131. Your views please, and these gentlemen -- I think we are gentlemen -- and myself, when we come back. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COREN: Welcome back to Michael Coren Live. I think in the break, I discovered that one of my guests is insane. But I... He was trying to show me why, I think, why he doesn't pay tax, and I just don't follow. Maybe I'm just completely stupid. It seems that you don't pay tax because you'd rather keep the money yourself.
STELLAR: Is that what it seems? What did you base that upon? You see, I'm simply telling you right here that, when I deal in law, and I take apart contracts in laws, and wills, trusts, and different undertakings - and the Income Tax Act is no different than any other piece of written work -- I look for a certain thing. I look for substance in the law. The only way to express substance -- and it goes back to that most boring thing we hated in school -- it goes back to grammar. Simple, basic.
COREN: I love grammar.
STELLAR Then I look for nouns...
COREN: Oh, don't get into this again! Oh, leave! (LAUGHTER)
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
STELLAR: Back to nouns. Back to grammar. Order of operation always supersedes the subject matter. Four plus four, divided by four? Equals five. Order of operation states you must divide before you add...
COREN: But you just lost a hundred thousand people who are trying to take their own life, rather than listen to this. Isn't there a moral obligation to pay some... Possibly you can, for a very long time, get away with paying no income tax. I could get away
with maybe stealing your wallet, but it wouldn't be just and righteous behaviour. Shouldn't you be paying tax? Isn't it a basic moral need to... pay tax?
FOX: I think it... that it's not unreasonable to pay some tax, yeah. But let me ask you, currently the range is between 45 to 55, I've had people in the oil patch say they're paying 65 percent when it comes down to it... And the next guests you're going to have in here are teachers. You figure out what they need most, and they're going to tell you they need money. I don't care what the stories are, they're going to tell you they need money to run their schools. So what we've got is a situation where we're already paying. What's happening Michael? Look around.
COREN: What are you talking about? What do you mean we're already paying. Schools, public and separate system, is funded by tax dollars. It wouldn't exist unless we pay taxes. You're not paying for it, but the schools are still out there. You don't pay any taxes at all?
FOX: Except for the day-to-day stuff...
COREN: You don't pay any income tax. You can't get away without... I should think if you could, you probably would try to. But you don't pay any income tax.
FOX: Actually, there's a way to get away with that too, but that's for another show.
COREN: You don't have... you can sleep at night? You don't question yourself that you don't pay any income tax?
FOX: No, no, I don't sleep(sic)... I mean, I don't have a problem with that. I make my contribution to my society by teaching people.
COREN: Do you give to charity?
FOX: Yes.
COREN: A great deal?
FOX: As much as I am comfortable with, and it's the guy on the street I give to. I won't give to organized charity because too much goes to management, overhead.
COREN: You know that, for many charities, that's just untrue. I mean, charities are audited and audited and audited. I have standing orders with some charities, and I make sure I go for the ones where that doesn't happen. Everything you say seems to be a smoke screen around selfishness. You can get away with paying no income tax, good for you! You know, you've beaten the system, and so, you know, that's great for you. But you should be doing it, you should be doing it.
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
STELLAR: Well, maybe what we've got to do is just fire off a ten percent donation out of the goodness of our hearts.
COREN: To?
STELLAR: To Canada Customs and Revenue agents.
COREN: Make it more like 25 percent.
STELLAR: Why 25?
COREN: Ten percent's not enough.
STELLAR: How do you know?
COREN: What do you mean how do I know?! You know... The question is, do you feel no sense of shame or guilt when you...
STELLAR: No.
COREN:... when you drive along a road, when you're protected by the police...?
STELLAR: The roads are paid with the gas tax.
COREN: They're not paid with the gas tax, not completely, and you know that. The police being paid, the educat... I mean, surely we believe in a public education system, a certain civility in civilization, society depends on that, and children come out with an education. We don't want an illiterate population. What's that paid...
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
STELLAR: You...
COREN: That's tax dollars. You don't, in any way, contribute to that, but you do get the benefit of it by kids being literate and being relatively civilized, and an orderly society.
FOX: You see a very limited picture, Michael. As clever as you are...
COREN: I'm not clever.
FOX: ... you see a very limited picture. Guernsey -- you're familiar with Guernsey because you come from the old country, correct?
COREN: Guernsey?
FOX: Yeah.
COREN: It's a little island off of the English coast where very rich people live.
FOX: Oh yes, yes they do. Yes they do, and they were... in 1816, they were very very poor. They had 19,000 pounds debt to England, they had no breakwaters -- they required breakwaters around the island. The government, itself, decided to print money, and they put it into circulation by hiring their own people. Now, this is government-printed money. They create their own money, they hire their own people. Now everybody has two cars, there's no illiteracy, they make about $60,000 a year, there's no debt in the country because the government issues the money, not the bank. The Bank of Canada issues the money. The money you have in your pocket does not belong to you. I got court cases to say it's a promissory note drawn on the Bank of Canada.
COREN: Do you really know about Guernsey? I don't think you do. You know about Guernsey... what are the other islands? Do you know what they are?
FOX: I'm talking about Guernsey.
COREN: The fact is... The fact is with a tax set like Jersey and Guernsey... Jersey, for example, you can only go to live there if...you've got to be a multi-millionaire, you apply...
STELLAR: The life that Guernsey has created, because they're the only ones that have done this...
COREN: If you create... I don't think we're getting off topic. If you have an island, a very small island with very few people, and you say only rich people are allowed to live there, what a surprise, you don't have any poverty, you don't have to pay into a welfare system because poor people aren't allowed to live there!
FOX: It didn't start that way, Michael. It grew that way from 1816... I'll bring you the documentation.
COREN: I'm not convinced by any of this, and you're going to take some calls here.
Sandra, on Line 6. Hi Sandra.
CALLER: Yes, I wanted to know if your guests use the health care system, and are their kids attending public school?
COREN: Good question. Do you have children?
STELLAR: Yes I do.
FOX: Yes.
COREN: Do they go to school?
STELLAR: Yes they do.
FOX: I home-schooled one child for quite a while.
COREN: We were home-schooled too, but we still pay into the system. I think that was probably an obligation. Do you use the health care system?
STELLAR: No, I don't.
COREN: So, if you're having a heart attack, you just stiff up and...
STELLAR: No, if you're talking with regards to a dramatic injury, I certainly would. In terms of everyday health, my family, we do not use the public health system...
COREN: But... So you've been fortunate.
STELLAR: But we do take care of our family. We do pay right out of our pocket. We go see chiropractors and we pay them. We go see holistic healers and we pay them. We... we pay straight out of our pockets...
COREN: I do that too but... if I've had a health problem, my kids... they go and use the hospital.
STELLAR: And health funding, doesn't a large part of that come right out of property taxes, with large school systems, right out of property taxes?
COREN: You know, I believe... relatively a small part.
STELLAR: What's the advantage... I don't want to get into stats...
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
COREN: Well, I'll tell you, in Ontario alone... Ontario alone... what is it? $22 billion on the health system. Do you honestly think that could come out of property tax?
STELLAR: Oh no no. I'm just curious right now as to what percentage we get back in a service to re... income tax back to our (inaudible)...
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
COREN: It's interesting how you won't address the question. Do you use the health system?
FOX: At times, very little. I haven't been to a doctor for six or seven years.
COREN: Okay, but I assume that if, suddenly, you had this terrible pain in your arm, and you were sweating, and you knew you were having a heart attack, you wouldn't say, well I can't use the health system because I haven't paid... You would use it, right?
FOX: Well probably, sure.
COREN: Is it not hypocrisy to use something that you haven't paid for? To take advantage of other maybe quite poor people who have supported that system?
FOX: What makes you think I haven't paid for it? Just because I don't continue to pay...
COREN: You're nosing in pure selfishry(sic) here. You've already told us you haven't paid income tax, the health system is funded mostly by income tax, thus, you haven't paid into it.
FOX: If you could ever get the comprehensive annual financial reports on the country, the province, the city you live in, you'll find that there's money that's being buried, that's being hidden within our country, and within our orga... our system that we're in, that we don't have to pay any taxes. But it's being buried. Brian Mulroney, Mr. Five Percent, go look at that.
COREN: Where has it been buried, under the rainbow somewhere?
FOX: It's been buried in these buildings that are behind you that are on the books for a dollar. Check with the bank.
COREN: All right. We have to go to break here, then I'll get straight to all of your calls. There are a lot of you there: Marg, and Tammy, and Marvin, and Naomi, and Sarah, and the rest. 416-203-0302. 905-332- 3131. Just a couple of moments on Michael Coren Live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COREN: A little later on in the show, we have a debate on education. We'll have teachers deeply involved in the education system, very strong views, people who hold the education system very close to their heart, public education of the time. There was time of course, in this country, and in most countries, when people didn't have an education. If you didn't come from a certain class, you couldn't read or write, and that's not that long ago. Remember, that is not that long ago. And in terms of how long you spent at school, even my parents in London, England -- and they're not that old -- they were leaving school at 14
and 15, and straight out into employment and so on. We'll talk about education later. It's funded, to a large extent, a huge extent, by income tax. These two people, Byron Fox here, and Bruce Stellar here, don't pay any income tax at all. There are lots of callers. Let's go to them. Marg on Line 5. Hi Marg.
CALLER: Good evening... I think this is a really bizarre thing to do to the rest of the people, and I think that they're really, basically, stealing from the rest of our society. And I really think that, in a country where we have a country where we have civilization, if people believed as these gentlemen do, we wouldn't have a country, we wouldn't have a civilization of any kind. And yet, they're willing to bleed the rest of us -- which, most of us believe we have to pay for the street lights and the roads, and the rest of the things that everyone in this country needs -- to keep us as a country in any good shape. I think this is really a bad example. And I agree with you Michael, this is probably the most extreme case of evasion I've ever seen.
COREN: Gentlemen, how would you respond to that very eloquent and balanced call?
STELLAR: Extremely balanced, and very eloquent, and I understand this lady's point. I enjoy certain freedoms that this country has to offer as well... I will fight for the soil like anybody else. When it gets down to it is... I am motivated to act, with regards to income tax in particular, by the law. If the law compels me to do so, then I will. And I haven't been able to find it, Revenue Canada hasn't provided it for me.
COREN: Someone of your intelligence, you know that the law is not the final armature of what is just and unjust. We can agree on that, surely. We can agree that when the law said the people of Carlisle had to sit at the back of the bus, it was an unjust law. We can agree that when the law said that... Jewish people couldn't be citizens, in(sic) an unjust law. So there's something above the law of the land, and that is a moral law, an absolute right, a natural law.
STELLAR: I won't argue moral law with you. I'm coming from it strictly from a lawful point of view.
COREN: So if the law says it's okay, it's okay.
STELLAR: Not necessarily so. I'm speaking strictly with regards to income tax. There are things that the law allows today that I don't agree with, and I'm not going to get into those kinds of discussions.
COREN: You're being inconsistent in your argument then.
STELLAR: Not at all.
COREN: You're saying, I base everything on what the law says, but only in certain issues...
STELLAR: Only if the law compels me...
COREN:.. when it comes to how much money you pay.
STELLAR: I think that... I think, quite frankly Michael, you'd be a hypocrite in your own right here, in so far as, if there was no law, and no Revenue Canada to compel you, but rather just a little street- side envelope where everybody dropped their money in once a month, I'd question whether you'd do it.
COREN: And you'd have a right to, and perhaps I wouldn't. I may be a hypocrite. Now, I could defend myself, but I'm not going to. But even if I was the biggest hypocrite in the world, that doesn't alter the justice, or lack of, of the income tax system.
STELLAR: When's the last time you gave a guy a one ounce gold coin, straight, for no reason.
COREN: I don't have one. What do you mean a gold coin?
STELLAR: I've done this. I've had people from the seminar... charity, give them one ounce gold coin out of my...
COREN: Of course I give to charity.
STELLAR: It's not that I don't have a charitable heart. I'm going...
COREN: That's not the issue. I mean, my belief system means that I... (inaudible)... beyond income tax.
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
FOX: They have a(sic) Income Tax Act that's 3,000 pages long. Do you understand it?
COREN: You won't answer the question. Let's take some more calls. Let's go to Tammy on Line 2. Hi Tammy
CALLER: Hi. While I think that your guests are touching(sic) the scales there a little bit, there maybe something to what they're saying. Now, I want to ask them, the moral issue still is that you can't possibly say that you use these services and not pay anything. I mean, we are taxed to death, I agree, and you seem to have found some sort of loophole out of it, for your own conscience, but the moral issue still remains. You use these services, and gas tax ain't covering it, and maybe your property tax ain't covering it. How do you... how do you sleep at night?
FOX: This is Tammy, was it Tammy?
COREN: Umm-hmm.
FOX: Tammy, yes that's perfectly a legitimate question. What if it was this way: You're arguing for your servitude. You're a slave and you don't realize it, and you're arguing to stay that way. Bruce, myself, and some other people in this country have got the courage to take a stand.
COREN: Oh, come on!
FOX: Hang on Mike, hang on.
COREN: I'm hanging, but I mean, please, this is hyperbole. She is not a slave, and neither am I. You two may well think...
FOX: You're arguing for your servitude.
COREN: You two may well be slaves to the dollar, you are so obsessed with keeping all this money. I think that is servitude. STELLAR: My job is what you see. I do seminars. That's what I do for an income. I'm not making a lot of money. I'm out there scout... teaching. There are people out there who I know, they can sit here all day long and tell you that they morally feel obligated to pay income tax, but I know when it gets down to the nitty-gritty it's the law that makes them do it.
COREN: Well you don't know that. But the law... There are bad laws, but the law is meant to be a moral guide. I mean, it's based on certain principles, and we have a social contract. We expect protection and civilization from the government, and we give certain rights to that government. We're not allowed to break the law. I can't go and steal something. And the government says you pay a certain degree of income tax. Now, we can argue we're overtaxed, that's a very valid point to make. Perhaps we are. I'm not going to argue that point. But you're saying no tax at all!
STELLAR: And I know people out in that audience who engage in the services of an accountant, and they'll say, get me the... get what... I'm looking for a deduction. I can get you 20 percent off. And you go find a different accountant and he gets you 30 percent off, and you go see another, and he gets you 45...
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
COREN: I use an accountant...
STELLAR:... and you get one that gets you 60, and you're happy he's getting you...
COREN: No, I use one...
STELLAR: Come talk to me, I'll get you a hundred. And I'm a hypocrite?
COREN: Yes, because...
STELLAR: That's not right!
COREN: The issue of certain legal deductions that are valid under the...
STELLAR: Ah, now we're talking about the law...
COREN: You're allowed to do this. But you're saying no, don't pay any at all.
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
STELLAR: I'm showing you the lead... No, I'm showing... I have a legal deduction that takes you to a hundred percent, because now I'm a moral fool. No, I don't buy that. Principally, it's the same. If you're prepared to go get a legal deduction for 25, 30, 35, 40, 55, 60 percent off what you thought (sic) your tax burden, then you come talk to me, it's a hundred percent, now I have no spine.
COREN: I would never call you a moral fool. I would call you an immoral genius. You're not paying any tax at all.
STELLAR: You've got half of it right.
COREN: Okay, let's take another call... You're just immoral.
Let's go to Greg on Line 6. Hi Greg.
CALLER: Hi Michael, thanks for having me on. I just wanted to point out then, I guess you probably made my point for me a little earlier... And it's just simply the fact that... I mean, obviously, just because something isn't against the law, it doesn't make it right. I mean, certainly it's not against the law to not donate bone marrow to a friend or a family member, but most of us in the world that I live on... live in, and you do Michael, would do it. It's not against the law to not do it, it's just right. It's morally right, and... thankfully, most people in my world don't have anything in common with the two gentlemen that you have on there right now.
COREN: Thanks... I want to get some more quickly, because there are a lot of them, we don't have too much time. Marvin on Line 8. Hi Marvin.
CALLER: I have a comment and a question. The comment first, Michael, is that you are spending a third, or even close to half of your working life giving tax money to politicians who are going to fly around the world first class on junkets at your expense, who are going to make consultants millions of dollars richer at your expense. I wouldn't have a problem with paying the tax if we weren't pouring the money away, wasting it on stuff that just makes other people rich. And if you're paying $20,000 a year for that, Michael, I'm sorry, but you're a damn fool.
COREN: I'm paying a lot more than that, Marvin. That's how much I owe at the moment. But let me ask you this. Now look, I don't believe in the armed forces. I mean, the guys in it are great, but I actually don't believe we should be paying money for weapons of destruction. I don't believe in funding abortion clinics. I don't believe in funding many things, but I still pay the tax. But for you to say it's all being wasted on junkets and politicians is the biggest cop-out. Yes, money's being wasted, but the vast bulk of money is going to major issues like welfare, education, health... They take the bulk of this. Do you think those things aren't important?
CALLER: Most of it is not. And if you really want to donate to causes, Michael, you can donate to them. We can easily set up an education system that would be user-paid, easily, without having to pay so much in tax and waste so much at the top on money that never goes into the classroom. What I wanted to ask...
COREN: You mean like the voucher system?
CALLER: I'm sorry?
COREN: You mean like the voucher system?
CALLER: I guess so, yeah. I mean, a direct pay, sure, and I'm sure that there would be lots of wealthier people who'd be willing to pay so that poor people could, in fact, send their kids to school if they couldn't afford it.
COREN: Yeah, like the 19th Century, or even rich people who are willing to set up factories so that poor kids can go and have a job where they work 15 hours a day. Give me a break!
STELLAR: I'd be curious to know, Marvin, what kind of work you do, and I'd be curious to know how many of your friends pay income tax because they believe they have to do it, they believe it's the right thing to do, versus, they get a reminder once a year through a nasty brown envelope. I'm curious to know how many people in that audience, viewing audience, right now are doing it because they morally feel obligated, and that has nothing to do with the 3,000 pages of Income Tax Act which they believe they gotta adhere to.
COREN: You've said that time and time again. Do you believe in the defence of this country, for example, from a foreign invader?
STELLAR: Of course!
COREN: Well who would pay for the armed force to defend this country?
STELLAR: Well, let's put it this way... not me through income tax.
COREN: Yeah, I thought you might say that. Let's take another call.
STELLAR: Well, let's be truthful...
COREN: I think it's Naomi on Line 7. Is that Naomi?
CALLER: Okay... Can you hear me?
COREN: Go ahead Naomi. Is that the name that...
CALLER: Okay, I want to make a comment and ask a question too. First of all, I think that we're being taxed to death, and I do think that a lot of the money is being wasted, and it does get wasted. Now, I had a situation where I donated money to a charitable organization for three years, deducted it off my income tax. Now, the government has decided that that charitable organization wasn't a hundred percent honest, and they're disallowing the contribution receipts that I have. And now, they want me to pay $20,000. And not only that, but they're using strong arm tactics by threatening me, and saying that they're going to
tell my boss, they're going to garnishee my wages. I'm a single mother with four children, and they use these kind of tactics.
STELLAR: No mercy.
COREN: Naomi, how much money were you... If you have to pay 20,000, and for three years you were giving money to charity, you must have given them an absolute fortune.
CALLER: Well, it happened when I just got separated, and I was very upset, and I was using this person in my... as a spiritual leader, from my organization, right?
COREN: How much were you giving?
CALLER: I was giving, maybe, a hundred dollars a week, something like...
COREN: That doesn't add up to you owing 20,000. You get a tax write- off, of course, if you give to charity.
CALLER:... three years in a row. So one year, it was almost like seven, eight thousand dollars that I gave.
COREN: Seven or eight?
CALLER: Yes. So now they're disallowing all that.
COREN: Naomi, no doubt that there are some problems with the tax system, but again, these guys, they're not arguing there are some problems. They're arguing that the very nature of taxation is immoral.
STELLAR: I'm arguing that the law, itself, doesn't compel me to do so, not the nature.
FOX: When you pick up the Income Tax Act, the first thing you do is you trespass on a copyright. You (inaudible) action the minute you opened it. It's private copyright law.
STELLAR: I can prove to you... but I can prove to you that even filing an income tax return...
FOX: But you're a... you're the moral man.
STELLAR: What would you do if I told you, from a moral point of view, that filing a tax return, in and of itself, you still haven't complied with the law, to the letter of the law. Would you be interested in knowing that?
COREN: No, not really.
STELLAR: So you'd rather put your head in the sand and not know it. That's fine, that's fair. I don't mind...
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
COREN: But these are just fundamental digressions from the real issue. Let me (inaudible)... because I haven't got to much longer. 1939, and that rather stupid looking Austrian corporal is getting up to his antics. Do we pay an absolute fortune to organize the fighting men of this country, and Britain, and Australia, and New Zealand to fight Hitler and the Nazis. Do we actually indulge in that war.
FOX: Well I don't know. It seems we did. It's a (inaudible) point.
COREN: No it's not, it's absolutely valid point. Should we have fought a war like that? Most people would say yes, it's a valid war to fight. How would it be paid for?
FOX: If you understand how the bankers set it up and financed both sides, so you end up with one side in debt and the other side winning, you realize it was just a big (inaudible)...
(SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
COREN: The whole war was the product of bankers?
FOX: Yes it was, in fact.
COREN: It was, right, okay. All right. Even taking that lunacy as fact, even say it did happen, to fight the war, to defend people who were being persecuted in Europe, would the war have been valid then, and if so, how would we finance it?
STELLAR: Bottom line, what percentage of income tax comes back to you in the way of a service. You get that statistic, and you show me a number better than eight percent, I'm interested.
COREN: Let's take a couple more calls. Pete on Line 1. Hi Pete.
CALLER: Yeah, hi Michael.
COREN: Hi there.
CALLER: How are you doing?
COREN: Good.
CALLER: Just listening to these two gentlemen, and I know that all of us that they included believe in obeying the law of the land, and... I think if most Canadians would take the time to read their Constitution, which is basically based on the BNA Act, and of course the Human Rights Constitution, or the human rights legislation that makes our new Constitution, they will notice in Sections 32 and 33, it's very specific as to who has the rights to tax. And it states very specifically that the federal government has no right to collect income tax, however, that is the realm exclusively of the provinces. The provinces of the country can collect income tax. Now there is plenty of precedent in law, right to the Supreme Court of Canada. I will quote you, for those that care to read it, the Supreme Court of Canada decisions in the... (SPEAKERS OVERLAP)
COREN: Don't quote them Pete...
CALLER:.. cases in Winnipeg, and also the cases of the Lord Nelson Hotel...
COREN: Okay, don't quote them because we won't really know what they're about, but...
CALLER: Anyway, the bottom line is that, in both of those cases, Supreme Courts ruled in favour of those individuals who challenged that the Income Tax Act was illegal, and therefore, the federal government was ordered to pay over seven million dollars back in taxes. So I just put it to you that way... You see, I believe in law, and law is based upon the Constitution of our country, and if you don't follow the constitution of your country, then you have no basis of law to...
COREN: Yeah, save it. It is a detailed discussion. We don't have too much time. But your basic premise is wrong. The law is based on many things, the Constitution just one aspect that shapes law. I mean, there's many forms of law, and it's not just the Constitution. The Constitution is a product of law. You cannot argue it the other way. But let me ask you just before we go, is it moral or immoral... I think we live in communities to pay tax, to help... forget yourself, other people.
CALLER: All to pay tax?
COREN: (Inaudible)... I'll ask you again. We live in communities, is it moral or immoral to pay tax to help other people?
CALLER: I think it's moral to pay tax, but I believe it's immoral to be used, and I believe that politicians and government have been literally raping and pillaging and plundering honest Canadians trying to make a living.
COREN: I don't feel (inaudible)... I think that's just a rather marvellous country, but I would reform certain things. Byron Fox, thank you for being here. Bruce Stellar, a great pleasure. Oh, you want to plug something, don't you?
STELLAR: Yeah, I want a plug, yes.
COREN: Very quickly.
STELLAR: Tomorrow night, seven o'clock at the Day's Inn on Airport Road, and then on Saturday and Sunday ten in the morning, Day's Inn, Airport Road, we're going to have a seminar. We'll train people in what they can do about this.
COREN: That's on the Airport Road, okay.
STELLAR: Yes, at the Day's Inn.
COREN: If you move it just a little bit further, maybe downtown Toronto, downtown Hamilton, you can also come across some people who are pretty desperate, and maybe... an expanded welfare system through tax dollars would make their day a little more cheerful. Thank you for being here gentlemen.
STELLAR: Thank you Michael.
FOX: Thank you.