From Econ-LETS@mailbase.ac.uk (Econ-LETS) Part I
Date: Wed Mar 26 03:25:06 1997
From: hcleasby@signalbs.demon.co.uk (Helen Cleasby)
Subject: Re: Style, Strategy & Turmel
In message <199703251321_MC2-133F-66C1@compuserve.com>, Andy Ryrie
<106410.2165@compuserve.com> writes, re John Turmel
>My observation of your path is that you have a lot to say, you say it
>in (as I said to you) a somewhat aggressive / confrontational style
>and as a consequence of this rather than the content, tend not to get
>taken seriously. Whilst I do not suggest that you have reached the
>limit, there must logically be a point at which a style / path does
>more harm than good. Presumably there is also an optimum level of
>effectiveness which is worth aiming for.
I wholeheartedly agree. I am one of the people who just do not read
John's postings. With very limited time at my disposal for LETS
activities, I find I have to be ruthless about what I spend it on. I
live in a village and am involved with 2 local LETS organisations
(Tring and Hemel Hempstead) and may shortly join 2 more (Aylesbury and
Leighton Buzzard). Helen Cleasby
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Apr 1 04:36:04 1997
Subject: TURMEL: No responses?
I asked those who had been complaining about my posts to cite
what parts of my posts in the last month were too long or
inappropriate so I could curtail those topics to this group. In
particular, these people would like to see my input reduced.
From: jholling@ccs.carleton.ca (John Hollingsworth)
Subject: Re: How Would You Vote on LETS
But give others a bit more space to breathe. It is one hell of a
presumption to think that you are worth as much of the time and
attention of others as you imply by the frequency and volume (in both
senses of the word, i.e. "loud" and "voluminous") of your
communications, elections, etc. IMO.
From: LD-CAL-LEACH@MCR1.poptel.org.uk (Nigel Leach)
Subject: MLM, Turmel - turmoil
However another difficulty attending the use of this list seems to be
the interminable Turmel postings.
From: 100411.13@compuserve.com (Diana Clift)
Subject: Re: MLM, Turmel - turmoil
I quite agree. I've been thinking of leaving the list because I can't
stand the hugely long mailings, especially from Turmel. Di Clift
From: hyrbh@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Sue Webb)
Subject: Re: MLM, Turmel - turmoil
I delete all Turmel postings and MLM postings....They seem so
irrelevant to local matters....I think my time could usefully be spent
reading other stuff...No offense meant but some of it borders on
irrationality....I think the use of the word Usury.....could in some
contexts be deemed anti-semetic....but I do not want to start that
debate....As I said I just delete them and I know a few others who
also do so. Regards Sue
From: 100114.3132@compuserve.com (Alex Gian)
Subject: J Hollingsworth on J Turmel's Mailings
Dear John Hollingsworth,
I support what you say about Mr Turmel's mailings, in your posting of
the 11 March 1997. Never before have I been reduced to deleting
messages before I download them, but I do now when I see his name on
them and they're huge (And though I admire and have been influenced by
his 'economics as engineering' article) But enough is more than
enough! Lois Pryce, Bristol LETS, England
From: cs@oden.se (Christina Svensson)
Subject: Re: How Would You Vote on LETS
HEAR HEAR!!
From: di238@freenet.carleton.ca (Terry Cottam)
Subject: Re: J Hollingsworth on J Turmel's Mailings
The step taken by the local on-line community is to create a separate
local newsgroup (the initial one was restricted to Freenet users
anyway) that can filter out crossposting. This eliminates the lion's share
of Turmel's postings and none too soon. This won't solve the larger
concern -- Freenetters and locals in general online are thoroughly
sick of him -- but at least it establishes a good precedent by people
locally struggling to promote LETS as a credible alternative.
From: g.seyfang@dial.pipex.com (Gill Seyfang)
Subject: Re: MLM, Turmel - turmoil
I agree, I already delete the interminable Turmel postings without
reading them, but unfortunately I still have no choice but to download
them first - racking up my phone bill. Can anything be done? Gill
From: llanirc@gn.apc.org (LRC) John Waters
Subject: Interminable Turmel
Two things:
1) I can very easily understand why people would prefer not to have to
spend money downloading John Turmel's voluminous postings,
JCT: Well, I offered to reduce anything that was inappropriate
and I still haven't heard from these people just what posts were
objectionable for whatever reasons. I gave them the list of posts I
had made in the previous month so surely, I think that you've made
such an issue out of my posts that you should be able to pin-point
what articles you think were objectionable. Or were you complaining
when there were none?
I find it hard to take these kinds of people seriously because
they never, ever, back up what they say. Here's another great example.
They've filled our newslist with complaints and when we ask for one
specific example, they don't produce. So how can we be expected to
take those opinions seriously when we see them wasting so much band-
width without even knowing what you are complaining about.
Usually I ignore these kinds of unspecific complainers but since
Richard Kay had taken them seriously, I've been forced to also. I keep
urging Richard to ignore this kind of uninformed and no-basis
complaining but I know it's hard. Surely of all these people, one of
them would have one article to cite to make their case.
And yet we see that when challenged to be specific, all 9
protestors retreat into silence. It looks more and more like there was
no substance to their charges.
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Apr 1 05:00:52 1997
From: xuegx@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Tom Holloway)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: No responses?/exhaustion....
Perhaps the silence is a way of saying something? I'm not actually one
of your nine, but even so I suspect that we are all slightly
'Turmeled-out'.
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Apr 1 06:41:05 1997
From: ecomex@alanet.com.br (Normann Kalmus)
Subject: Turmel's mailing list
Hi folks, Why don't we help Mr.Turmel to create his own mailing-list?
All that ones who loves him (or hate him but like to read his e-books)
could sign that list and left the other ones reading something better.
Regards Normann Kalmus
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Apr 1 16:19:43 1997
From: cs@oden.se (Christina Svensson)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: No responses?
I personally find it very sad that You don't seem to get the point
made to You by so many people. I also find it very sad that you
obviously spend so much of your energy and time on something that has
the opposit effect than the one you (I imagine) intended.
I have tried not to be cought up it this argumentative behaviour,
since it only produces more arguments. But that is a very hard thing
to do sometimes.... So here is my answer:
I have digged trouth my traschcan and found these postings from You
this last month. DON'T ask me to cite any part of them, couse that
would mean I have to read them, and I DON4T have the time for that
since it would take me several hours, and that much time am I not
prepared to spend on You, Mr Turmel. Only goint through my trash took
me a good while, more that this issue deserves really, but now it4s
done. I post all your postings to you separately, with my coments, but
I won4t take up the list with them. Only that the most common remark
on them are: TO VOLUMIOUS!
Christina Svensson, Skarpnack LETS/BYTS, Sweden, Bytesringar i Norden
-------------------------------
Date: Wed Apr 2 16:03:04 1997
From: LD-CAL-LEACH@MCR1.poptel.org.uk
Subject: A. to: TURMEL: No responses?
To: ECON-LETS@mailbase.ac.uk
I am not sure if Mr Turmel's posting of 1/4/97 was another April fool
or if he meant it. On the assumption that it was meant I fear he is
simply not prepared to listen. The instances of problems come with
almost every posting, they are usually long and repetetive as several
other correspondents have pointed out. Often of very specifically
local interest and give the clear impression that the writer
absolutely knows best and is willing to use words as a battering ram!
I stick to my earlier suggestion that he should set up his own
bulletin board/discussion area and then he can post to his hearts
content.
John it is not that you stop me hearing from others - it is that I
still feel that I would like to hear YOUR point of view, however it is
presented in such a way as to make unlikely that I or anyone else (if
the evidence of recent postings is to be believed) will be bothered to
unwrap it. It would be really good to have you still using econlets
but your apparent refusal to listen to what lots of people are telling
you surprises me. I assume that those who subscribe are interested in
clearing the waters and not muddying them. With best wishes.
Nigel Leach
JCT: I don't care whether he likes the wrapper or not.
-------------------------------
Date: Thu Apr 17 04:28:06 1997
From: xuegx@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Tom Holloway)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: LETS registries and leakage
I would love to know what this message is about. I'm sure it's full of
good arguments and information; but my mailer says it's 744 lines long
and I don't think I need the arguments enough to download and read it.
Sorry JT. You will have to learn to shorten your messages if you want
to get them across to me... Maybe try answering one thing at a time?
-------------------------------
Date: Fri Apr 18 16:33:42 1997
From: cs@oden.se (Christina Svensson)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: LETS registries and leakage
To: johnturmel@yahoo.com
John Turmel wrote:
>This topic is generating a lot of discussion so I would advise
>keeping TURMEL in the title for the convenience of readers who use
>kill-files.
KILL-FILES?! I'V NEVER HEARD OF SUCH A THING, BUT PLEASE TELL ME HOW I
CAN KILL YOUR POSTINGS BEFORE HAVING TO DOWNLOAD THEM!!!!!! CHRISTINA
-------------------------------
Date: Fri Apr 18 16:49:37 1997
From: cs@oden.se (Christina Svensson)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: LETS registries and leakage
PLEASE, can anyone tell me how I can discard these messages before
downloding them?! OR can this list put a max-size to the postings?
OR can anyone make this man STOP, or at least taker resason!!? (many
have tried, but it seems no-one have had any sucess...)
This is just TOO MUCH!! Christina
-------------------------------
Date: Fri Apr 18 19:23:43 1997
From: zisk@well.com (Brian Zisk)
Subject: Complaints about postings
Hi all. With almost all email management packages, it's trivial to
filter one person's postings from a mailing list so that you don't see
them. If you don't know how to do so, please read the documentation
which came with your email program, or ask your systems administrator.
It's much harder to filter various complaints from various people who
pop up unhappy with one individual's IMHO relevant posts. The
complaints which keep popping up use more resources than the postings
themselves.
Hate to have to keep dealing with this, but please be aware that
everyone who pops up complaining about an individuals on topic
postings is showing that they'd rather complain and try to control
other people's actions than learning how to use the technology to
filter out that which they're complaining about. Tools not rules.
Why complain about something (in an attempt to control someone elses
behaviour) when you can eliminate the problem from your end?
I guess what's ticking me off is that people complaining in numerous
threads destroys the continuity of what's being discussed for those
who are interested in following the threads. The adding of noise by
complaining in a thread where there's signal that "there's too much
noise" is worse than self defeating. It perpetuates "your" problem
amongst others who are interested in the the conversation, when you
have the ability (if you so wish) to never have to deal with the noise
at all.
If you don't like what (puffball@someplace.com) has to say, filter
(puffball@someplace.com) and you won't see any of their posts, or
replies to them. Complain in threads which some (like I) wish to see,
and the complainer becomes the problem.
Here in America and on the Internet, there's Freedom of Speech. There
are tools which allow others not to hear your speech. Please use them
before attempting to censor others.
So (in summary) if you must complain, please do it in a thread which
can be safely ignored by those scanning the headers with no interest
in the complaint, such as this thread. Or be aware that others will
consider that you are adding to (what may or may not previously have
been considered) a problem.
Thank you for your consideration. Please understand that this is not a
criticism of anyone in particular, just a general guideline people
should consider before addressing what they consider to be a problem
with their own solution which others will definitely consider to be a
problem. Hope I'm not contributing to any problem. ;-)
Have a wonderful weekend, and let's all get away from our keyboards
for a while. Brian Zisk
-------------------------------
Date: Fri Apr 19 16:33:42 1997
From: cs@oden.se (Christina Svensson)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: LETS registries and leakage
Brian Zisk wrote:
>Tools not rules.
>Why complain about something (in an attempt to control someone elses
>behaviour) when you can eliminate the problem from your end?
Sorry if I'm new to this whole computer-thing and don't know
everything about all the teknical possibilitys that they offer. I am
however very happy that someone (finally) informed me that I can
filter certain postings, and I have now spoken to my internet
provider, who has promised to administer this. (Just hope it works and
that no other postings are filtered by mistake...?)
I just regret that by doing this I will cut out certain postings
completley, and I will never know what valuable/useful/interesting
information they might have contained.
But since the writer refuses to listen to anybody who asks him to
compress his postings a wee bit, so that they might be readable for a
normal human being, becouse he doesnt want to waste his energy(?) on
someone who isn't willing to download and dig trough 10 pages of text
a day, I feel that this is the only possible solution for me.
Maby I was complaining becouse I DO want to know that this person has
to say, but he doesn't seem to be very interested in making people
read he's posts, so.... Peace. Christina
-------------------------------
Date: Mon Sep 8 21:59:09 1997
From: plumbing@wave.co.nz (Maureen and David Mallinson)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: LETS: Ottawa West Candidate Report #10
To: johnturmel@yahoo.com
At 09:52 PM 9/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>LETS: Ottawa West Candidate Report #10
JOHN, CAN YOU NOT PUT THIS ON YOUR WEB PAGE SO WE CAN ACCESS IF
NECESSARY, THANK YOU, MAUREEN
-------------------------------
Date: Mon Sep 8 22:24:27 1997
To: plumbing@wave.co.nz
Subject: Re: TURMEL: LETS: Ottawa West Candidate Report #10
>JOHN, CAN YOU NOT PUT THIS ON YOUR WEB PAGE SO WE CAN ACCESS IF
>NECESARY, THANK YOU MAUREEN
Evidently, I can't put it on a web. I'm not on line ofetn enough
yet and would love to.
Still, it's only 200k of text in 10 days, 6 pages a day.
Considering the mega-discussions that have recently been taking
place as well as personal attacks and recriminations, I'd wonder
that you wouldn't find a couple of hundred Kilobytes of unique
information rather than tedious discussion on "what is a LETS?" a
lot more interesting. And considering I only pop online in times
of political action, do you really think I've been unreasonable
to echo my LETS political campaign reports to econ-lets?
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Sep 9 02:20:50 1997
From: plumbing@wave.co.nz (Maureen and David Mallinson)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: LETS: Ottawa West Candidate Report #10
To: johnturmel@yahoo.com
John, I am sorry to have to say it, but I find these reports very
evasive and not relevent to the development of LETS at all. They might
only be small reports to you, but to busy LETS people they clog up our
mailboxes. If you cannot put it on a web site I am sure there is
someone in your area that could help you with that. Discussing what is
a lets system is relevent and not tedious at all. Maureen--
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Sep 9 02:57:07 1997
To: plumbing@wave.co.nz
Subject: Re: TURMEL: LETS: Ottawa West Candidate Report #10
Maureen, A couple of hundred kilobytes overspace of 2 weeks in 3
months of inactivity? It's just not that much compared to the very
large posts we've been seeing recently. You the only one to coomplain
and I would refer you to Brian Zisk's letter a while ago for an
explanation of why I like to keep posting to econ-lets.
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Sep 9 03:17:04 1997
From: plumbing@wave.co.nz (Maureen and David Mallinson)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: LETS: Ottawa West Candidate Report #10
To: johnturmel@yahoo.com
JOHN YOU JUST SENT THIS TO ME TWICE.
ARE YOU GOING FOR A RECORD ON HOW MUCH EMAIL YOU SEND EVERY DAY. YOU
HAVE BEEN ASKED NOT TO SEND THIS LAST TIME IT HAPPENED, I AM NOT THE
ONLY ONE WHO FEELS LIKE THIS, AND I SHOULD HAVE SAID SO LAST TIME BUT
I LEFT IT TO RUN ITS COURSE, I ENDORSE WHAT BRYAN DUXFIELD WROTE TO
YOU LAST TIME. I AM ALSO POSTING THIS AS WITH THE LAST POSTING TO
ECONOLETS MAUREEN
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Sep 9 03:21:05 1997
From: zisk@well.com (Brian Zisk)
Subject: please learn how to filter your email, and/or skip over
messages
To: plumbing@wave.co.nz (Maureen and David Mallinson)
*JOHN, CAN YOU NOT PUT THIS ON YOUR WEB PAGE SO WE CAN ACCESS IF
*NECESARY, THANK YOU. MAUREEN
Dear Maureen.
I find Mr. Turmel's postings very relevant to LETS. In his last
posting the information about the film "LETS: Another Economy" is
extremely relevant (and no other information about the film has been
mentioned on this list). I'll be looking to obtain a copy of the film
to view.
How is this not relevant to the development of LETS? Mr. Turmel posts
more LETS related material than anyone on the list, and it's upsetting
to see people singled out for harassment due to the volume of their
postings. If you don't have time to read his postings, then don't read
them, but how you don't have time to read his postings but have time
to complain (SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS NONETHELESS) is (how shall I say
this) spiteful.
Some people do. Others complain about the methods of those who do.
Learn to use the filtering feature on your email, and you'll never
have to read Mr. Turmel (or anyone else you decide bothers you too
much) ever again. Complain about something which you have control over
(like screening your email), and you're the one who's unnecessarily
clogging up the list.
I (one out of many) missed his postings when they were not available
here. They're more full of LETS advocacy than I've seen anywhere.
And they're hilarious. He's fighting for truth, justice, and the LETS
way of being.
While I wholeheartedly believe in alternative money systems as a wave
of the future, this systemic putdown of any of the people who try to
move the process forward is the most likely issue to prevent LETS
systems from catching on to even a fraction of their potential.
Please remember that you have the right not to read what someone
posts, before attempting to deny them their right to post.
Thank you for your time and consideration. And next time you want to
take the time (and waste ours) for flaming someone you don't want to
read, why not spend the time learning what you need to do (ask your
system administrator if you can't figure it out) so you never have to
read that person again. That's much better than attempting to limit
his LETS related postings. Brian Zisk. Please
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Sep 9 03:39:12 1997
From: plumbing@wave.co.nz (Maureen and David Mallinson)
Subject: Re: please learn how to filter your email, and/or skip over
Dear Econolets, this is what I have received from Brian Zisk, please I
would like comments, I am not being spiteful, I am saying how I feel,
can others please do the same. Maureen.
Brian, I am sure many others just delete these postings but as you
have said we have missed relevent information i.e. LETS: Another
Economy the film. Surely there is another way this information could
be sent out, I am sorry you may have been offended but it was not
meant to be offensive. Maureen
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Sep 9 04:22:45 1997
From: xuegx@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Tom Holloway)
Subject: There is a need for conversation about LETS
I'm fortunate to have a mailer that tells me how many lines each mail
item has and whenever I see something from Turmel that's more than
about 50 lines I hit the D button. It's a pity - he just _MAY_ have
something important or interesting to tell me, but since he obviously
finds it impossible to continue a conversation, preferring to deliver
lectures instead, I shall never know......
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Sep 9 06:11:17 1997
From: velvet2b@juno.com (Velvet M Brazen)
Subject: postings
well i'm sorry, but for the life of me i don't understand what all the
complaints and cheekiness are about....so i feel compelled...
if you find mr. turmel less than informative (or amusing, for that
matter) who in hell is forcing you to read it? i hope you don't mean
to indicate that you are too busy to delete, for god's sake!
as for capital letters being used in a correspondence, i hope you
don't have any real irritations to put up with in your life, say for
instance world financial disaster or global ecological collapse -
personally, i don't have any gadgets on my mailing system for
filtering, etc. if there is a large volume of / or dubious material, i
merely scan-read as best i can; if i choose to forego something, it is
MY loss and nobody's business but mine, exactly as it is none of my
business what gets posted so long as it is central to the list's
purpose and not derogatory in nature.
incidentally, this particular list is of a very moderate to low
volume, as any list-serve sysop would tell you (probably in detail,
for hours on end....no. i'm just kidding). i hope no one takes this as
an insult or personal affront, after all, things really are quite bad
enough so.... *please LETS try to lighten up a bit* ; ) -velvet
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Sep 9 16:09:43 1997
From: sparky@pipcom.com ("Chris Hohner")
Subject: Turmel-athons
Well, John certainly posts some lengthy stuff - but I DO skim it and
find little gems sometimes. His LETS book list some time back I was
grateful to "score" - hadn't heard of some of those materials. John
isn't the only eccentric I've met through LETS! Chris Hohner
Peterborough LETS. General Manager, Community Software
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Sep 9 15:03:14 1997
From: zisk@well.com (Brian Zisk)
Subject: Re: Turmel-athons
To: sparky@pipcom.com ("Chris Hohner")
In fact, we have a little joke around the office here, that after we
meet John, he'll probably turn out to be the most normal of us all.%-)
-------------------------------
Date: Mon Nov 24 19:36:08 1997
From: bo.ljungqvist@ctv.gu.se (Bo Ljungqvist)
Subject: Re: Making this list work for all
I do not find it difficult to select from the list to read what
interests me; sometimes about "workgangs" sometimes about money
theory. No one is forced to read everything. The system with labels
of topics works quit well. For example it just take me some seconds a
day to transfer the mail from John Turmel into a safe place where it
does not block my computer system and where I can read it later if I
want. (Who else is working so hard to transfer the parliamentary
system to become a tool for the wellbeing of people?)
And please just remember that the worst enemy might be our own
conviction! Some of us might have a problem of subscribing to too
many lists, but please do not try to solve this problem by being so
exclusive that the result becomes still more lists.
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Nov 25 04:30:34 1997
From: xuegx@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Tom Holloway)
Subject: Splitting the list.
To: econ-lets@mailbase.ac.uk
Karen Stephenson said...
What I _don't_ want to share are absurdly long and tedious speeches.
My purpose in suggesting an alternative forum for LETS was to provide
a place for discussion - short exchanges relevant to day-to-day LETS
experience - a place to ask the occasional question and share
practical ideas.
If setting up a separate practical list will be seen as 'separatist'
and unconstructive, then I will not do it. I already have 7 lists to
contend with; my only wish was to create a forum where practitioners
could discuss day-to-day matters without having to download the
thoughts of Canadian candidates for office.
There is a simple practical solution which I have adopted for the
largest and most active of my lists. If those subscribers who have
long polemics that they wish to deliver will put them on a suitable
web-site, they can then use the EconLets List to draw attention to
them and provide the www or ftp address so that they can be
downloaded by those who want to read them.
Speaking for myself - you can hi-jack as much as you like! Just
please don't send me the 800-line dissertation that you end up with.
-------------------------------
Date: Tue Nov 25 07:26:52 1997
From: edbenjamin@brookes.ac.uk (Elise Benjamin)
Subject: Splitting the list. (Forward)
To: econ-lets@mailbase.ac.uk
*What I don't want to share are absurdly long and tedious speeches.
I think this is the main problem for us non-academics. I am an
extremely busy 'community activist' and have limited access to email
(Monday to Friday only). Despite being a professional typist (which
does help to get messages out quickly) I find I have little time to
read many of the postings on this conference.... this then means that
I have even less time to reply. It's almost as if some contributors
to the conference can't distinguish between a simple question and an
essay title - no offence meant it's just that I always feel why use
50 words when 20 will do.
*my only wish was to create a forum where practitioners could discuss
*day- to-day matters without having to download the thoughts
*of Canadian candidates for office.
Who could this be referring to I wonder!
*EconLets List to draw attention to them and provide the www or ftp
*address so that they can be downloaded by those who want to read them.
I'm sure this, or something similar, has been suggested before, which
I presume is the reason why I haven't received many Turmel postings
recently!
*you can hi-jack as much as you like! Just please don't send me the
*800-line dissertation that you end up with.
Brilliantly put - this conference should be about sharing ideas and
experiences. I belong to other conferences where the most effective
(and efficient) policies, decisions, etc are a result of brief,
'sound-bite' discussions (the contributors come from all walks of
life). At the risk of repeating myself, using less words doesn't have
to mean that the content/meaning of something is reduced.
-------------------------------
Date: Sat Apr 18 04:17:06 1998
To: econ-lets@mailbase.ac.uk
Subject: TURMEL: Unacceptable LETS post?
JCT: The post in question is My Thu Apr 16 1998 post to econ-
lets@mailbase.ac.uk on Subject: TURMEL: Re: People's Summit (TOES 98)
was a copy of my letter To: Sara.Murphy@neweconomics.org, the TOES
secretary:
*Dear Ms. Murphy:
*I and my friend Pauline Morrissette are going to be sending out a
*mailer to many of our UK friends in the LETS movement inviting them
*to attend this year's TOES. I would be interested in booking a room
*to make a presentation to them on LETS Advanced Engineering
*Mathematics and world-wide progress.
*Ideally, I'd prefer a 2 hour slot on Saturday May 16 between 4pm and
*6pm where I notice there won't be many other conflicting seminars.
*Can you book me a room for 50 to 100 people at that time? Thank you.
JCT: I'm not sure what caused the problem as I could just as
easily announced Pauline and I were going to TOES and inviting econ-
letsers to the meeting but:
*Date: Thu Apr 16 10:29:12 1998
*From: dillonph@northcoast.com ("Paul H. Dillon")
*Subject: Re: TURMEL: Re: People's Summit (TOES 98)
*Dear John,
*I'd like to ask you to keep specific, personal requests, such as the
*one you sent to Sarah Murphy, off the list. Such messages are clearly
*personal in nature and do not belong on the list. If you have a
*specific request to make of a person who posts to the list, please
*contact them directly concerning the particular matter. Thanks.
*Thanks for posting the information on the People's Summit. Too bad I
*can't use some of my local currency to pay for a ticket and lodging
*in Great Britain. Getting the activists who promote LETS and other
*forms of local currency into a closer dialogue with the other
*progressive forces is so important. Paul H. Dillon
*From: johnturmel@yahoo.com
*To: dillonph@northcoast.com
*I think it was a very relevant, though personal, missive. Many
*econ-letsers are from Britain and now they know what my plans are for
*the TOES conference. Why don't you throw this up to the public and
*see if this kind of information is truly offensive?
*The point about the first TOES point is that now I don't have to
*publish that information as I would have anyway under another title.
*considering the little traffic on econ-lets while I was gone, I don't
*I don't think you should deter any posts at all that contain the
*word LETS.
*Date: Thu Apr 16 21:50:31 1998
*From: dillonph@northcoast.com ("Paul H. Dillon")
*I'm not so sure that any posts with the word LETS in it are
*appropriate for posting. One needs to think of the image of this
*potentially useful forum. In the last 10 days alone 8 people have
*joined from the U.K., Senegal, Thailand, Sweden, Denmark and
*elsewhere.
*For them to read about how many mule loads of gold Jesus had
*according to the calculations of someone who seems to post about
*5000 words a day (conservative estimate) might convey the idea that
*this is not a place for serious sharing of information and ideas
*about LETS and/or other forms of local currency systems.
*I personally enjoy some of your stuff, but I don't believe that just
*because the list is quiet, just because no one is posting right now,
*that is is incumbent to fill up the empty space. Nature might abhor
*a vacuum but I also remember reading that emptiness is also form.
*Clearly there is a need to develop some general, ongoing lines of
*discussion, but how this will be best achieved, I'm not yet sure. I
*really can't recall seeing a lot of dialogue generated off of the
*missives you have lavished upon the list. Perhaps, John, you should
*consider uploading a lot of your longer posts to the econ-lets
*website. Then you could just announce the topic of your post on the
*list and people who are interested could check out the web site. One
*does not need a GUI interface to access those files, a text reader
*will work fine. As you mentioned in a private email, I also would
*like to know what the other members think about the appropriateness
*of your extensive posting. Paul H. Dillon
JCT: Okay. Let's ask the other 174 readers of econ-lets.
The TOES article was news to several people on the list.
My inviting econ-letsers to attend a LETS presentation was news.
Who to register with at TOES was news.
I never just fill up space though if you don't see how Jesus
Christ fits into the LETS equation, I could understand your thinking
that way. Perhaps from The Gambler, you would have expected I
demonstrate geometric growth using the proverbial grains of wheat
doubling on each square of a checkerboard but rather, I wanted to try
out what I think more creative, the mules to carry the gold.
You may prefer that I cut back or post elsewhere and send
notices. That's not the original purpose of this listserv. It was to
receive all raw data, not digests of where to search while the readers
I hope to reach are those who want even more, not less. Each writer is
not posting for the readers who don't see the same relevance, we're
writing for the people who do. And the fact 90% don't and only 10% do
has no bearing on the issue. Everybody knows what they're getting when
they sign up to econ-lets. More LETS information than from any other
source.
As my list administrator, I expect you to clean out articles non-
related to LETS, not spend fruitless time worrying about our image.
You are not expected to get involved in the merits or length of news
or opinion unless there's a memory shortage. Keep your job simple.
Until your mandate is changed, eliminate the spam, leave content and
volume alone.
-------------------------------
Date: Sat Apr 18 08:30:27 1998
From: xuegx@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Tom Holloway)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: Unacceptable LETS post?/opinion
Quite by chance, the letter that Turmel wrote to Sara Murphy (and
copied to econ-lets) is the first Turmel letter I have read for
several months. I read it because it was short, and for that reason
also I found it acceptable, although of no interest at all to me. If
this same letter is now going to yoyo back and forth between Turmel
and Dillon, gathering quote marks and arguments as it goes, it will
very quickly become *unacceptable* and boring. I'm prepared to read
*short* items that are somewhat irrelevant, but not *long* ones.
I have said before that there is a need to find some mechanism - an
ftp area, a web-site - that will servethe list for longer pieces,
especially those of an erudite and polemical nature.
-------------------------------
Date: Sat Apr 18 18:20:29 1998
From: Richard.Kay@uce.ac.uk (Richard KAY)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: Unacceptable LETS post?/opinion
Tom Holloway wrote:
*Quite by chance, the letter that Turmel wrote to Sara Murphy
There is in principle no problem with longer pieces of an erudite
nature or polemics of sufficient quality being uploaded to the
mailbase ftp/web site. The qualifying criteria for mailbase to support
this cost are:
a. relevance to the purpose of the list.
b. the quality of the material proposed for publication
There is also a practical consideration, which is that either the
contributor must be able to take responsibility for the publication
process, requiring that they be considered responsible enough
temporarily for this purpose to be made a list co-owner, or some other
person willing and able to take on this responsibility and do the
necessary preparation work has to be found.
I do not consider John's postings to be erudite, while as polemics
they are not, in my view, of sufficient quality and it seems unlikely
that John would be able to take on the responsibilities even of
temporary list co-ownership.
I therefore think mailbase not to be an appropriate sponsor to provide
web and ftp space for John Turmel's postings except to the very
limited and questionable extent that these qualify for posting and
automated archiving given the "open forum" nature of econ-lets, and
the extent to which mailbase guidelines for discussion promote
informality. It would, I feel, be better for the general discussion if
the bulk of John's contributions were to go to a dedicated web/ftp
space, but this should not, for the reasons stated above, be on
Mailbase.
Clearly there are circumstances in which any "open forum" can be
misused, as John Turmel well knows. When the extent of this misuse
reduces its usefulness to those intending appropriate use, this kind
of activity becomes parasitical. Consequently all providers of fora
intended to be as open as possible, (including Mailbase) have made
provision for the possible exclusion of misusers.
The question therefore is to what extent do John's activities reduce
the usefulness of econ-lets to others? I have read a number of
complaints over the years and am sympathetic to the feelings of those
who have complained, but given that those who aren't interested in
reading John Turmel's postings can delete them unread I have not seen
enough hard evidence that people have left because of the proportion
of marginally relevant material. If there were sufficient hard
evidence that John's activities made econ-lets less useful to its
members. Then I would support John's address being blocked by
Mailbase. Regards, Richard.Kay@uce.ac.uk
-------------------------------
Date: Sat Apr 18 21:47:33 1998
From: LD-CAL-LEACH@mcr1.poptel.org.uk
Subject: Re: TURMEL: Unacceptable LETS post?/opinion
To: ECON-LETS@mailbase.ac.uk
Some recent postings have commented on John Turmels postings - their
length and quality. About a year ago I and others asked him
courteously not to post such long messages but he seems to be back
with the long ones, often not of direct concern.
I agree with Paul Dillon's request to him in respect of the message to
the TOES admin though it was certainly helpful to have the information
about TOES.
The problem I (and others) have is with the length and relevance of
postings, I dont find poems and the biblical references sufficiently
illuminating to want to download so much stuff from him. Its not that
I have to read them, its that I have to spend time downloading them to
find out that I dont want to read them!! I find it difficult to
understand how someone can continually fail to respond to what he is
often asked to do by colleagues on this list. If he will not or cannot
respond then I would, with very much reluctance, vote for his removal
with the option of return if something more sensitive to others
situations can be agreed with him. Regards, Nigel Leach
-------------------------------
Date: Sat Apr 18 21:18:24 1998
From: zisk@well.com (Brian Zisk)
Subject: Let's talk about LETS
To whom it may concern,
The Econ-Lets list would be of considerable less usefullness (and
interest) to me if Mr. John Turmel were *not* posting to it.
As one who prefers going to the heart of an issue, it's refreshing to
see someone's dedicated, original attempts to stir up interest in the
exact topic which the list is dedicated for.
I have yet to see a piece of Spam sent to this list. This is
delightful and refreshing. However, the attempts to control discussion
(remember how easy it is to filter out postings by an individual you'd
prefer not to read, or to just delete them unread) are more of a
nuisance than the original postings. (Please spare the list any
tirades about how you are unable to read the relevent documentation to
figure out easy ways to avoid downloading the postings). As is said
around here, RTFM.
Almost anyone with an original idea is bound to set off detractors.
IMHO Mr. Turmel's postings are on target, about LETS, and I (for one)
am much more disturbed by the attempts to control what an active,
relevent poster is posting than I am by the length of his missives.
People's complaints are harder to filter out (and consume more
bandwidth and energy to process) than the original postings.
Some do. Others complain about what the doers are doing. Which side of
the fence would you rather be on? Sincerely, Brian Zisk
-------------------------------
Date: Sun Apr 19 00:10:32 1998
From: tom@cyberclass.net ("Tom J. Kennedy")
Subject: Let's post a little more about LETS...
Since I joined econ-lets in 1996 I have not been writing very many
posts to but I browse everything and carefully read selected postings
that especially interest me and I continually make my own observations
as I determine what is "truth" for me. I have no trouble discerning
what to read and what not to read and I do not need anyone censoring
any LETS posting (prose or poetry) for me. I also share selected econ-
lets postings with various cyberspace friends who are asking questions
about alternative economics in general and about LETS specifically.
In addition, I have recently established a link to econ-lets at my
website.
Let anyone type anything relevant about LETS and I will decide if it
is useful for my self-imposed re-education process. I say "re-
education" for those of us who have come through formal education
during the letter half of the 20th Century definitely have to be re-
educated about economics and LETS for we were not told the "truth" in
our formal institutions of learning. Neither have we been told the
"truth" about health issues, energy issues, history issues, religious
and/or spirituality issues and the list goes on and on......
In case any posting to econ-lets is not relevant to me I know the
delete button is easy to operate and only a finger push away. It is
the postings by the leaders and thinkers that make econ-lets an
interesting and informative mailing list for its subscribers. In my
humble opinion there has been and is no need to threaten anyone with
removal from the econ-lets list.
I regret that during the past year some great contributors to the
econ-lets have chosen to withdraw from posting their valuable insights
because of unecessary harsh criticism by other econ-lets subscribers
about stuff that is not all that insignificant in the larger scheme of
implementing the LETS solution globally. Other subscribers type a lot
of good information and thought-provoking stuff, some of it in poetic
style and just for doing so they get criticised. Why oh why? We ought
not to be bickering like school children and playing small as we have
a really big LETS mission to see to the finish.
I share with econ-lets subscribers these classic lines written by
Nelson Mandela and invite each of you to understand and foster each
other's talents, brilliance and power instead of getting caught up in
"ego stuff" and in the process crippling the growth of LETS by losing
the support of some of our very best innovators who have withdrawn
from econ-list.
During this past week I have been reading about complaints and threats
to remove another subscriber from econ-lets because he has too much
understanding and wisdom to type. LETS needs its leaders and promoters
who voluntarily invest their time, energy and USURY-bearing federal
cash to re-educate those of us who are in a learning mode. Let's not
vote to get them off econ-lets for then we won't be able to learn from
them. Let's get over our fears and learn to let our presence liberate
others like Nelson Mandella suggests:
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is
that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our
darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be
brilliant, gorgeous, talented and fabulous? Actually, who are you not
to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the
world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other
people won't feel insecure about you. We were born to manifest the
glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in
everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give
other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our
own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."
---
Here is another lesson for us from "the apes in a cage". A cyberspace
friend e-mailed me this story. I don't know its source, but the author
was pretty smart. Here's an edited version that clearly makes a point
that we can all learn from.
---
Start with a cage containing five apes. In the cage, hang a banana on
a string and put stairs under it. Before long, an ape will go to the
stairs and start to climb towards the banana.
As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the apes with cold
water.
After a while, another ape makes an attempt with the same result - all
the apes are sprayed with cold water.
Turn off the cold water.
Later, if another ape tries to climb the stairs, the other apes will
try to prevent it, even though no water sprays them.
Now, remove one ape from the cage and replace it with a new ape.
The new ape sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his
horror, all of the other apes attack him.
After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb
the stairs, he will be assaulted.
Next, remove another of the original five apes and replace it with a
new ape.The new ape goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous
new ape takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.
Again, replace a third original ape with a new one. The new one makes
it to the stairs and is attacked as well.
Two of the four apes that beat him have no idea why they were not
permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the
beating of the newest ape.
After replacing the fourth and fifth original apes, all the original
apes that were sprayed with cold water have been replaced.
Nevertheless, no ape ever again approaches the stairs. Why not?
"Because that's the way it's always been around here."
---
Sound familiar?
This is the type of thinking that stymies growth and it needs to be
replaced with an enthusiasm for promoting the LETS software as the
engineering solution to the economic problems that plague the world
because of USURY. The important point is that the engineering design
of the LETS software offers a perfect interest-free banking system to
those of us who use it. It matters not which piece of LETS software
any local community uses. Why not seek to get the whole world using
the LETS software as soon as possible?
Various programmers are continually improving LETS software by adding
"bells and whistles" that make it more user friendly. Why not seek the
most recent, improved version? And to those young and dynamic computer
whizes who design custom software, I challenge you to design a
LETSsoftware for a website so that we can sign up on line and
immediately trade our virtual LETS credits with anyone, anywhere on
planet earth. I will donate a domain name and website as a starting
point to anyone who is ready and willing to create the LETS software
package that can deliver LETS globally now.
Those of us who participate with one or more LETS community networks
know that the LETS software effectively delivers USURY-FREE banking.
Let's not continue to be like the "apes in the cage" and be satisfied
with "the way it has been around here." Instead let's be innovative
and leave our egos aside and foster a true spirit of reaching out to
help our fellow human beings all around planet earth before it is too
late to save ourselves. Let's do it with LETS now!!
I learned about The Other Economic Summit (TOES 98) by reading John C.
Turmel's posting dated April 16,1998 and Sara Murphy's response.
Although some econ-lets subscribers have determined that John's
request was personal in nature, Sara's response contained valuable
information for anyone who appreciates learning of opportunities to
promote LETS.
Certainly TOES 98 is an appropriate place to educate the attendees
about the LETS solution and how it can play a significant role in
solving our local, national and global economic woes. So what's the
big deal that John Turmel posted a question on econ-lets? We all
learned something because he did so and that's what econ-lets is all
about. And I know that John will make a brilliant presentation at TOES
98 - as he has done so often for the past 16 years.
With the rapid growth of LETS in Britain, France and other European
countries in recent years and the fact that LETS was a key topic of
discussion at the 1997 TOES Conference in Colorado, one would expect
that LETS supporters everywhere - and especially in Britain - would
be anxious and willing to make sure that John C. Turmel - the Banking
Systems Engineer and various other LETS speakers are given prime
opportunities to speak to those who attend TOES 98.
From reading email and talking with people who attended TOES 97 I have
determined that all future TOES Conferences are ideal for LETS
education and promotion. There is no longer any doubt that the LETS
software will become an integral part of the economic solution to have
"abundance" replace "scarcity" everywhere in the world during the 21st
Century.
Though not all participants of LETSystems realize it, the real power
of LETS is that any LETS currency is "interest-free" or I like to
speak and type about it more emphatically by saying that LETS
currencies are "USURY-FREE". When we throw off the yoke of USURY we
will free ourselves forever from the economic slavery that is
currently dominates planet earth. LETS offers us the solution -
locally, nationally and globally. So, let's get on with the solution
and let's talk about LETS on econ-lets.
All 174 other econ-lets subscribers are invited to The Cyberclass
Network where they can visit the Economics Room and review the
Economic Links, the Abolish Interest Rates (AIR) Lessons and the
Barter/LETS Lessons and guaranteed you will "learn some information
that you didn't know you didn't know". The URL is:
http://www.cyberclass.net
PS: Why is it that as a subscriber to econ-lets I do not have access
to the email addresses of the other 174 econ-lets subscribers? I was
recently typed to by a former econ-lets contributor that the list of
econ-subscribers was formerly available to all econ-lets subscribers.
I am curious as to why that policy has changed. Why shouldn't we all
know each other and what we are doing individually and collectively to
promote LETS? Frankly, I would like to make a link to everyone on
econ-lets who has a website which offers some information relating to
LETS. So, each of you is invited to email your URL"s to:
tom@cyberclass.net and I will add them to my growing list of LETS
Links at The Cyberclass Network.
PSS: Does anyone have a details or a report about the Conference about
Interest-Free money which took place in Brazil during the last week of
March 1998? If so, please email to me. Thanx.
-------------------------------
Date: Mon Apr 20 14:58:00 1998
From: a_middle_man@hotmail.com ("matt molyneaux")
Subject: Free Speech & Tolerance
I also note with interest the lines in Turmel's post of Wed, 15 Apr
1998 01:20:48 Subject: TURMEL: LETS: Bigger and bigger steps 19980415
*I find it truly amazing that in a newsgroup where no one has posted
*while I was gone for 10 days, complaints about articles have driven
*two contributors off the network.
I did not send Turmel a copy of the following post! Apart from my
non-existant post, no reference has been made in Econ-Lets to any
member leaving, other than by CH himself. Neither do I know who the
second member is.
Regarding censorship: Whether automatic, or by moderator; in
retrospect I have to say I am in favour. Yes, I am hiding behind a
mask of anonymity, and I believe my views have a certain validity. But
to prevent a private right-of-reply, and to accept totally anonymous
postings, would be wrong.
OTOH, I wish to maintain my absolute privacy. I do not much mind being
critisised, but I have been email abused and flamed before now, and
that I am not prepared to risk again. Valid comments made privately
will be read, unless someone spams this acct. It isn't important,
exists only for econ-lets, and will be terminated.
Forgive the posting, but I feel I have to comment on the recent
flaming that has been occuring within the group. No one wishes to
spend time listening to a public slanging match about a private
affair. I joined this list to hear a reasoned debate about different
opinions regarding the management of LETS groups. As a result of the
recent flaming, we (the group) seem to have lost the participation of
a member. He certainly has views that differ strongly to other
members. He may be wrong in holding to these views. But that doesn't
make his comments any less valid to this list. No problem will
withstand the onslaught of reasoned, logical debate. That is what this
list is here for, and I welcome his (any anyones) 'alternative'
opinions.
*POSTING GUIDELINES AND NETIQUETTE
*Shorter messages are often more effective, but there is no formal
*limit. If you want to contribute more than say, 10 screenfuls of
*text, it may be better to make the information available as a file
*which users can request and to post a short description to the list.
Turmel - Please note ;-) Thank you for listening. Lecture over. ;-)
-------------------------------
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